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gnost
05-20-2011, 10:13 AM
My questions are:

1. In what time periods did you use clen? (eg 2 weeks on, 3 weeks off, then again 2 weeks, then 3 weeks off, etc - you get my point)
2. For how long in total have you been using Clen?
3. If you have been recording your results, to what extent does the effectiveness of Clen diminish with subsequent cycles?
4. Did you experience cramps or other side effects?
5. What, if anything, did you take in the off-Clen periods?

Last but not least, if you didn't actually use Clen yourself but still decide to reply to this thread, please do indicate that you haven't taken it and that you are stating a belief, not describing firsthand experience.
Thank you very much to everyone who takes time to respond.

Nacho
05-20-2011, 10:46 AM
I don't understand the point of these questions. Clen isn't something new so there is plenty of data already out there and none of it is going to tell you what really matters .... how it is going to affect YOU.

gnost
05-20-2011, 11:41 AM
I am having trouble separating theoretical opinions from factual evidence. I want to try Clen, and what to understand what to expect. In particular, I am not clear whether it can be used repeatedly. Some people (inc. Lyle) claim that it works for about 2 weeks very well and then stops. Does it stop forever? Apparently not because there are other people who repeatedly cycle it, and they probably are doing that because they are getting results.
I am simply trying to get some quantitative information.
Hope that answers your question.

TonyD
05-20-2011, 11:51 AM
Take it for two weeks, then take two weeks off, then take it for another two weeks. Your receptors become saturated and the clen loses its effectiveness. So take the two weeks off for those to clear out and take your EC during that time.

gnost
05-20-2011, 11:55 AM
Thanks TonyD, sincerely appreciated.

Nacho
05-20-2011, 11:56 AM
Cycle two weeks on, two weeks off. Repeat.

Your hands will start shaking when you're reaching your max dose.

Your heart rate is going to be elevated which will be profoundly obvious if you do any exercise. If you need to do vigorous exercise ... god be with you.

You may or may not get a really bad headache.
You may or may not get major cramps.

Supplementing with taurine may or may not be helpful.

gnost
05-20-2011, 11:57 AM
Cycle two weeks on, two weeks off. Repeat.

Your hands will start shaking when you're reaching your max dose.

Your heart rate is going to be elevated which will be profoundly obvious if you do any exercise. If you need to do vigorous exercise ... god be with you.

You may or may not get a really bad headache.
You may or may not get major cramps.

Supplementing with taurine may or may not be helpful.

Massive thanks, all noted.

dresden
05-20-2011, 12:41 PM
When I used it very long ago I used the shaking hands as a setpoint. When my hands would stop shaking I'd take a bigger dose the next day, in order to always have slightly shaky hands.

Not sure if it's still a valid parameter, but may be a good way to track your body response.

gnost
05-20-2011, 01:15 PM
When I used it very long ago I used the shaking hands as a setpoint. When my hands would stop shaking I'd take a bigger dose the next day, in order to always have slightly shaky hands.

Not sure if it's still a valid parameter, but may be a good way to track your body response.

I'll keep this in mind, thank you for the tip.

Fireproof
05-20-2011, 01:18 PM
Take it for two weeks, then take two weeks off, then take it for another two weeks. Your receptors become saturated and the clen loses its effectiveness. So take the two weeks off for those to clear out and take your EC during that time.

Unless you take benadryl or ketotifen.

gnost
05-20-2011, 02:49 PM
Unless you take benadryl or ketotifen.

How do they affect the action of Clen?

Fireproof
05-20-2011, 03:05 PM
How do they affect the action of Clen?

After about 2 weeks on clenbuterol, your beta receptors get "down regulated" as has been discussed. Ketotifen basically acts on these same receptors and prevents this from happening. So what that means is you can stay on clen for more than 2 weeks and it will still be effective.

See here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...777&query_hl=6 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=2848777&query_hl=6)
Effects of ketotifen on the responsiveness of peripheral blood lymphocyte beta-adrenergic receptors.
"The effects of ketotifen therapy on the responsiveness of lymphocyte beta-adrenergic receptors was evaluated by measuring cyclic AMP elevations caused by isoproterenol [a beta2-agonist] in cells isolated from patients treated with ketotifen for more than 1 year. Binding of 3H-dihydroalprenolol to beta-receptors was also evaluated. The isoproterenol-induced rise in cyclic AMP relative to each individual's baseline level was greater in patients on current ketotifen therapy than in other asthmatic patients or non-asthmatic subjects. Ketotifen therapy increased the apparent equilibrium dissociation constant for specific 3H-dihydroalprenolol binding to the receptors. Receptor numbers in symptomatic asthma patients on standard drug therapy were decreased. The results indicate that long term ketotifen therapy is associated with increased responsiveness of beta-receptors to stimulation by catecholamines and that this alteration may involve changes in the receptors themselves, their membrane environment, adenylate cyclase or components of the adenylate cyclase coupling system."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...319&query_hl=2 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1964319&query_hl=2)
Effects of ketotifen and clenbuterol on beta-adrenergic receptor functions of lymphocytes
"Applying ketotifen and clenbuterol together the beta-adrenergic receptor function increased compared to the values obtained after application of clenbuterol alone (intraindividual-control) as well as vs. the group of healthies (control). Data presented support the view that therapeutic doses of selective beta 2-agonists do not lead to damage of the beta-adrenoceptor function. The improvement of receptor function after parallel administration of clenbuterol and ketotifen may be a consequence of the participation of ketotifen in the control of beta-adrenergic receptor system."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...180&query_hl=6 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=2571180&query_hl=6)
Effects... of ketotifen on beta 2 adrenergic receptor regulation in intact human lymphocytes
"KET alone also induced an up-regulation of cell surface beta adrenergic receptors."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...002&query_hl=6 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=2846002&query_hl=6)

(Tachyphylaxis is rapidly diminishing response to successive doses of a drug, rendering it less effective)
"The majority of the clinical studies in healthy volunteers have shown that chronic inhalation or oral intake of sympathomimetics causes tachyphylaxis of the bronchial beta adrenergic receptors... Several well controlled studies have however shown that chronic administration of sympathomimetics results in a significantly decreased sensitivity of the bronchial beta adrenergic receptor... Corticosteroids, given orally or parenterally, restore the sensitivity of the beta adrenergic receptors. [B]In a double blind, placebo controlled study in healthy subjects we have observed that ketotifen prevents the development of a tachyphylaxis of the bronchial beta adrenergic receptor during prolonged treatment with inhaled sympathomimetics."

brwebbox
05-20-2011, 09:58 PM
Not gonna comment other than to watch out for drug interactions. As an example, bromocriptine and antihistamines tend to amplify the side-effects of both drugs significantly.

amir85
05-21-2011, 12:14 AM
@Fireproof: on the link you provided "Clenbuterol handbook" It says:

"Fat loss: The most popular use for Clen, it also increases muscle hardness, vascularity, strength and size on a caloric deficit. For the most significant fat loss, Clen can be stacked with T3. Diet: A high protein(1.5g per lb of bodyweight), moderate carb(0.5g to 1g per lb of bodyweight), low fat diet(0.25g per lb of bodyweight) seems to work best with Clen."

Do you agree that a high protein/moderate carb/low fat diet works best along with taking clen and possibly T3? How does this compare to diet days of UD2.0? Am I splitting hairs here?:D

Nacho
05-21-2011, 01:07 AM
"Fat loss: The most popular use for Clen, it also increases muscle hardness, vascularity, strength and size on a caloric deficit."

Clen does all that? Ha! Muscle hardness and vascularity perhaps as when you lose fat those increase. Strength and size? No.

Fireproof
05-21-2011, 11:22 AM
@Fireproof: on the link you provided "Clenbuterol handbook" It says:

"Fat loss: The most popular use for Clen, it also increases muscle hardness, vascularity, strength and size on a caloric deficit. For the most significant fat loss, Clen can be stacked with T3. Diet: A high protein(1.5g per lb of bodyweight), moderate carb(0.5g to 1g per lb of bodyweight), low fat diet(0.25g per lb of bodyweight) seems to work best with Clen."

Do you agree that a high protein/moderate carb/low fat diet works best along with taking clen and possibly T3? How does this compare to diet days of UD2.0? Am I splitting hairs here?:D

Well, yes, high protein diet is best. As you would have with any body recomp or bodybuilding type goals. The rest is just details. I believe Lyle talks about using Clen on certain days of the UD2 cycle but not others, but it's been a long time since I read the book.

Fireproof
05-21-2011, 11:23 AM
Clen does all that? Ha! Muscle hardness and vascularity perhaps as when you lose fat those increase. Strength and size? No.

LOL. Yeah - that statement is a bit aggressive. ;)

And I didn't write either of the articles in the above link, just to be clear.

dresden
05-22-2011, 01:33 AM
I confess I'm gonna ask this without having searched about this at all, but uhm, it's a quicky.

Could it be that the ketotiphen acts by simply inhibiting the binding of clen? If so it gets a little pointless to use it, you can just lower the dosage of clen.

dresden
05-22-2011, 01:37 AM
@ the OP:
People report feeling it works far worse on the second cycle already.
It may be psychological, that's just what they report.

hockeylifter7
05-22-2011, 02:20 PM
I'm currently on my fourth time using it. I do 2 weeks on and then 3 or more off. The first time I took it, it was the best (think i lost about 6 lbs of fat in 2 weeks). I get the shakes which are tolerable unless I need to do something that requires a really steady hand. The worst part for me is the cramps I get during lifting. I have to stop about 2 reps short of failure on every exercise or else I get tremendous cramps. It feels like the muscle is being ripped off the bone. I also pound down as much water as possible throughout the day as that is all I have found to help weaken the cramps during lifting. Taurine did nothing for me.

Diet is 1000 cals below maintenance with at least 1.1 grams of protein per lb and I eat low fat, moderate carb.

Nacho
05-22-2011, 05:26 PM
I'm currently on my fourth time using it. I do 2 weeks on and then 3 or more off. The first time I took it, it was the best (think i lost about 6 lbs of fat in 2 weeks).

My guess for the reason is water.

amir85
05-23-2011, 05:59 AM
I started "injecting" it today in conjunction with UD2.0 (doing 14 days variation for the coming two weeks then 7 days version the following weeks).
Funny 'cause at the place I am living right now the only available form is the one prescribed for horses. It is called Broncopulmin (Clen HCL) @ 30micro gram/ml. I have to inject it using an insulin syringe..:D I asked bunch of competing bodybuilders and they all have done it before and report great results.
First dose was 0.7ml = 20micrograms, from tomorrow I will continually ramp it up by 20micrograms until I reach 60 or 80 micrograms depending how
tolerable it will be. I will have the last dose 36hr before my carb up then continue taking it on the post power workout day.
I also am taking Cytomel (T3) along with it. (25mcg might go up to 50mcg). Lastly I got some Ketotifen. Planning to take 1mg pre-bed. Lets see what happens.

FutureisNow
05-26-2011, 08:48 AM
This may be old news here but you may be able to get some Clen if you can find some pork from China. There was a big scandal there because some farmers , perhaps unknowingly, were feeding it to their pigs to lean them out.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2011-04/11/content_12300441.htm

Lucky pigs :D

Aminal
05-26-2011, 07:00 PM
Headaches :(

other than that, I like it. I don;t get the shakes or cramps too bad

Endz
05-26-2011, 08:48 PM
Hi I'm new here, this is my first post...


I have tried clen a couple times... I don't think I will ever take it again and I recommend my friends think long and hard about taking it if they ask for my advice.

I have read it has apparent cardiotoxic effects, which is scary, but also I found that I would get debilitating cramps in my calves, quads, and abs when on it, and I was supplementing with 2grams of magnesium a day and 4 tablespoons of taurine while drinking 4 litres of water daily. I didn't record my electrolyte consumption but I drank workout drinks containing electrolytes.

All in all, ephedrine is vastly superior in my book.

gnost
05-30-2011, 01:18 PM
@ the OP:
People report feeling it works far worse on the second cycle already.
It may be psychological, that's just what they report.

How much is 'far worse' in quantitative terms, approximately?

gnost
05-30-2011, 01:21 PM
I started "injecting" it today in conjunction with UD2.0 (doing 14 days variation for the coming two weeks then 7 days version the following weeks).
Funny 'cause at the place I am living right now the only available form is the one prescribed for horses. It is called Broncopulmin (Clen HCL) @ 30micro gram/ml. I have to inject it using an insulin syringe..:D I asked bunch of competing bodybuilders and they all have done it before and report great results.
First dose was 0.7ml = 20micrograms, from tomorrow I will continually ramp it up by 20micrograms until I reach 60 or 80 micrograms depending how
tolerable it will be. I will have the last dose 36hr before my carb up then continue taking it on the post power workout day.
I also am taking Cytomel (T3) along with it. (25mcg might go up to 50mcg). Lastly I got some Ketotifen. Planning to take 1mg pre-bed. Lets see what happens.

Could you please keep us posted about what happens? Or, if you are keeping a log, perhaps give us a link to it.
Thank you.

gnost
05-30-2011, 01:24 PM
Headaches :(

other than that, I like it. I don;t get the shakes or cramps too bad

Have you taken it in more than one 2 week cycle? If so, could you please post how much weight have you lost each cycle and what other things, if any, have you taken along with Clen.

gnost
05-30-2011, 01:28 PM
Hi I'm new here, this is my first post...


I have tried clen a couple times... I don't think I will ever take it again and I recommend my friends think long and hard about taking it if they ask for my advice.

I have read it has apparent cardiotoxic effects, which is scary, but also I found that I would get debilitating cramps in my calves, quads, and abs when on it, and I was supplementing with 2grams of magnesium a day and 4 tablespoons of taurine while drinking 4 litres of water daily. I didn't record my electrolyte consumption but I drank workout drinks containing electrolytes.

All in all, ephedrine is vastly superior in my book.

For how long did you take it?
Did the cramps start practically straight away?
How much weight did you have to lose?
Thanks.

Endz
05-30-2011, 11:00 PM
I ramped up the dose to gauge tolerance, starting at 40mcg for 3 days, then 80mcg for 3 days, then 120mcg and by the 2nd or 3rd day of the 120mcg the cramps were bad.

Two examples of the cramping, first, sitting at my computer chair, my abs cramped up so badly I had to throw myself off the chair to the ground and arch my back with my hands (like a cobra position) before the abs unclenched.

Second, I was at the gym training shoulders. I picked up the 80lbs dumbells and rested them on my quads and sat down on the shoulder press seat. Simply the weight of the dumbells resting on my legs caused my quads to clench so badly I dropped the weights unintentionally. I even yelled out 'ah!' in pain... Good thing the gym was pretty dead at the time.

That time I had been dieting for a month already I think I was around 12% bf. After the cramping nonsense I just went back to EC.

Endz
05-30-2011, 11:07 PM
I'll just throw this out there since we're on the topic, I love ephedrine and caffeine, its great with the exception of the 'half mast wood' issue (which can be solved with cialis I admit)..

But meridia is my favourite dieting drug bar none... In my early 20s after a number of tried&failed dieting attempts to get decent abs, it was meridia that finally helped me get ripped abs for the first time.

I like it a lot, because I am a person with a naturally enormous appetite and it helped quash my cravings down to a bearable level. As well, I noticed a very pronounced thermogenic effect on meridia, especially when combined with caffeine, no cramps, greatly increased energy level... And no ill effects on 'wood' haha. Also worth mentioning, no noticable withdrawl symptoms when I went off it.

gnost
05-30-2011, 11:57 PM
I'll just throw this out there since we're on the topic, I love ephedrine and caffeine, its great with the exception of the 'half mast wood' issue (which can be solved with cialis I admit)..

But meridia is my favourite dieting drug bar none... In my early 20s after a number of tried&failed dieting attempts to get decent abs, it was meridia that finally helped me get ripped abs for the first time.

I like it a lot, because I am a person with a naturally enormous appetite and it helped quash my cravings down to a bearable level. As well, I noticed a very pronounced thermogenic effect on meridia, especially when combined with caffeine, no cramps, greatly increased energy level... And no ill effects on 'wood' haha. Also worth mentioning, no noticable withdrawl symptoms when I went off it.

Thanks, both your posts are really informative.
Not having any 'wood', the 'half mast' question doesn't worry me, so EC is so far optimal.
Thanks for the meridia info, I'll look it up.

amir85
05-31-2011, 06:07 AM
Could you please keep us posted about what happens? Or, if you are keeping a log, perhaps give us a link to it.
Thank you.

I might do a log some day... After 5 days of taking it (right now it is @ 80mcg) the only side effect I am getting is mild shaky hands specillay during the first two hours of Clen administration. Oh and the other side effect is faster fat loss:D

gnost
05-31-2011, 08:10 AM
I might do a log some day... After 5 days of taking it (right now it is @ 80mcg) the only side effect I am getting is mild shaky hands specillay during the first two hours of Clen administration. Oh and the other side effect is faster fat loss:D

Oh yes, yes, a log please! With records of physical sensations, moods, training etc. :D

Maxwkw
05-31-2011, 08:23 AM
I've run clen twice and it had the same effect on me both times.

I ran it for about 3-4 weeks each time.

ramped up to 160mcg

I used 2mg of ketotifen before bed every night.

While I like the way that it leans me out, the sides are a bit much to handle. My hands shake immensely which makes my job really hard.

I also feel really wired, but artificially so. As if I could fall asleep if I laid down. It is not a good feeling.

gnost
05-31-2011, 08:34 AM
I've run clen twice and it had the same effect on me both times.

I ran it for about 3-4 weeks each time.

ramped up to 160mcg

I used 2mg of ketotifen before bed every night.

While I like the way that it leans me out, the sides are a bit much to handle. My hands shake immensely which makes my job really hard.

I also feel really wired, but artificially so. As if I could fall asleep if I laid down. It is not a good feeling.

Thanks for the info. I have questions:
1. How much body fat did you have to lose overall? (age/height/weight info would be useful)
2. How much did you lose each cycle? (I know you said same effect both cycles, but how much weight/fat was lost?)
3. How early in the cycle(s) did the shaking start? Did it start at the same dosage level in both cycles or there was no dosage/shakes correlation?
4. How long did you wait between the two Clen cycles and what did you take in the off-Clen period?
Thanks again.

Bonham
05-31-2011, 08:58 AM
I want to try Clen,

Just curious why at your current weight of 54K and 13% BF (per your other posts) you are looking to use clen.

Goal?

gnost
05-31-2011, 10:26 AM
Just curious why at your current weight of 54K and 13% BF (per your other posts) you are looking to use clen.

Goal?

Well, I am working on the iron cross, and one of the options I was considering is to make myself a bit lighter. Because Clen has such a stellar reputation for scraping weight off people who aren't strictly speaking overweight, I got interested in Clen.

Bonham
05-31-2011, 10:36 AM
Well, I am working on the iron cross, and one of the options I was considering is to make myself a bit lighter. Because Clen has such a stellar reputation for scraping weight off people who aren't strictly speaking overweight, I got interested in Clen.

Thats cool. At 13% BF how much lower can you go AND will 1 or 2lbs really make that much of a difference? Would of thought adding a pound or two of muscle would be more effective.

Either way, its your body and you know more about it than I ever will so good luck.

Thanks for the reply

gnost
05-31-2011, 10:40 AM
Thats cool. At 13% BF how much lower can you go AND will 1 or 2lbs really make that much of a difference? Would of thought adding a pound or two of muscle would be more effective.

Either way, its your body and you know more about it than I ever will so good luck.

Thanks for the reply

I agree with you, and from what I've learned so far in in this thread Clen doesn't look like the way forward. I am becoming more convinced that I need to get more insight into the training for the cross. the current problem is that I can only hold it for 2-3 sec, and I need about 10 to be able to work on quality of the cross and to progress to harder versions of it. The good news is, I now have some Russian gymnastics books from which I have already gotten some usable things, so it's not all bad! :)

azsta25
06-03-2011, 05:10 AM
i am from australia and have been searching endlessly for clen
i found a persoon that was able to get it for me but i have to wait 4 weeks for his stock to arive
does any one know where i can find some?

lylemcd
06-03-2011, 08:17 AM
i am from australia and have been searching endlessly for clen
i found a persoon that was able to get it for me but i have to wait 4 weeks for his stock to arive
does any one know where i can find some?

This isn't a source board.

azsta25
06-03-2011, 10:53 AM
i have been trying to get my hands on some clen
does anyone know where i can get some?

gnost
06-04-2011, 02:31 AM
i have been trying to get my hands on some clen
does anyone know where i can get some?

Please use Google, as the forum isn't the place to ask for dodgy things. If you need Clen to use as intended, let your doctor prescribe it to you. Otherwise, Google is your only friend.

Endz
06-04-2011, 10:12 AM
I don't think clen is ever prescribed by physicians to humans anymore... except maybe in some 3rd world nations... I'm pretty sure its almost exclusively a vet drug.

gnost
06-04-2011, 01:10 PM
I don't think clen is ever prescribed by physicians to humans anymore... except maybe in some 3rd world nations... I'm pretty sure its almost exclusively a vet drug.

Well, the Clen-seeker above could be a mouse, couldn't he... Anything's possible these days... :p

Endz
06-05-2011, 11:08 PM
haha a mouse on clen would be interesting to see...

Yeah azsta its simple just buy a racehorse, hire a vet, get the vet to prescribe your horse clen, then drink your horses medicine