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-   -   Becoming an Expert - The Role of Deliberate Practice (http://forums.lylemcdonald.com//showthread.php?t=3727)

Pikku 06-28-2009 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lylemcd (Post 42992)
A
This actaully has an interesting implication and explains the oft found reality that the best athletes are the worst coaches. Experts essentially demonstrate amnesia of the skills that they express. If you ask anathlete what he's 'thinking about' during a given skill, he can't really remember; if it's automated, he's NOT thinking about it. In fact, they often can't tell you what they are doing during the activity. This makes it difficult for them to explain to others what to do

That's really true, I'd never given it much thought before but my own experiences match that exactly. Im a fairly good soccer player and if im conciously thinking im going to do xyz trick to defeat a player alot of hte time ill screw it up whereas if im not thinking about anything and just 'in the zone' it'll all happen naturally and most times itll work out well

Espi 06-28-2009 05:33 AM

So there's hope for people wanting to be a PT, but think they aren't skilful enough themselves.. it might even make them better coaches once they finally master those skills :)

lylemcd 06-28-2009 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pikku (Post 43080)
That's really true, I'd never given it much thought before but my own experiences match that exactly. Im a fairly good soccer player and if im conciously thinking im going to do xyz trick to defeat a player alot of hte time ill screw it up whereas if im not thinking about anything and just 'in the zone' it'll all happen naturally and most times itll work out well

They demonstrated this ins a really clever study

They got expert golfers and noobs and had them putt with a normal club. The experts couldn't really relate what they were doing while they were putting, the noobs could.

then they give them this weirdly weighted club that changed teh stroke. Suddenly the experts were reduced to noob level b/c it was a movement pattern that they hadn't subconsciously automated. And they were able to describe what they were doing.

jc 06-28-2009 11:22 AM

Quote:

As I quoted myself on above, I find that most trainees just go through the motions on warmups, they are listening to their MP3 player or watching the hot chicks on the steppers or whatever; what they arenít doing is focusing on what they are doing.

But, they bitch, drills are boring and not fun and that chick is really hot.
loved this in teh 2nd installment

danbk99 08-15-2012 12:35 PM

I just read this article and I want to know if anyone has ever read either George Leonard's Mastery or Timothy Gallway's "Inner Game of.." books.

The reason being that it seems to contradict the idea of deliberate practice, in that the idea seems to be that too much concious deliberation gets in the way, and stalls improvement.

I wonder if anyone can clarify.. or maybe synthesize what the two "camps" are saying.

lylemcd 08-16-2012 07:28 AM

How are you going to improve WITHOUT practice? Magic? Hope? Rockey-esque montage sequence to a Journey song?

With years of deliberate practice, actions which are initially conscious become unconscious.

In fact, you can mess with experts by doing this: during their activity ask them HOW they are doing something. What was once unconscious becomes conscious again and it messes them up.

AmbassadorW0lfe 08-16-2012 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danbk99 (Post 191918)
I just read this article and I want to know if anyone has ever read either George Leonard's Mastery or Timothy Gallway's "Inner Game of.." books.

The reason being that it seems to contradict the idea of deliberate practice, in that the idea seems to be that too much concious deliberation gets in the way, and stalls improvement.

I think you might be confused over the semantical interpretation of "conscious" - where as "conscious practice" is putting in mental effort to replicate a motion, process or result, "conscious deliberation" is not practice. It's akin to mental masturbation. You're only thinking about doing something as opposed to physically doing it over and over and over again until you don't have to think about it.

I'll admit that I haven't yet read these books (although Mastery may be on my reading list, I'll have to check to be sure), but based on the summaries/insights I've read, they seem to support Lyle's notion of "deliberate practice"

http://davidmasover.com/blog/2010/04...ment%E2%80%9D/

http://www.theinnergame.com/about-tim-gallwey/

As a quick side-note, I find it hard to argue with the learning process as described by several schools of psychological thought:

1) Unconscious incompetence: You don't even know you're bad at something
2) Conscious incompetence: You now know you're bad at it and you know you'll have to start adopting new actions to change your results
3) Conscious competence: You have to deliberately exert mental and physical resources to accomplish the result you want
4) Unconscious competence: It's second nature and you don't even have to try.

Step 4 arguably is mastery. The fundamental question is how long does it take to go from step 3 to step 4 (which is where we go into the 10k hours debate).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence

lylemcd 08-16-2012 02:12 PM

My point is that you NEVER reach stage 4 without deliberate practice. NEVER. Cuz there's no other way to magically make it unconscious.

AmbassadorW0lfe 08-16-2012 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lylemcd (Post 192044)
My point is that you NEVER reach stage 4 without deliberate practice. NEVER. Cuz there's no other way to magically make it unconscious.

100% totally agree.

Reminds me of the days when I played basketball back in school - I put HOURS of work into perfecting jumpshot form and execution. It wasn't until after thousands of (conscious) repetitions where I would be able to start draining shots without thinking about them.

danbk99 08-16-2012 03:30 PM

I wasn't talking about practice per se, so much as too much practice where you are conciously directing/critiquing yourself too much during the practice. The idea in the book is that you have to just focus on one thing at a time and go with the flow..without 'demanding' a certain result during the practice..

The problem (according to Gallway) is that most people don't want to accept how long it takes to gradually get better semi-conciously through slow repetition, so they think that over-deliberating about their performance DURING practice will get a short-cut to achievement, but it won't ... it will make progress slower.. the concious mind is interfering with the long, slow process.


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