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-   -   Becoming an Expert - The Role of Deliberate Practice (http://forums.lylemcdonald.com//showthread.php?t=3727)

lylemcd 06-23-2009 12:41 PM

Becoming an Expert - The Role of Deliberate Practice
 
Part 1 on the main site

waltmiller 06-24-2009 07:10 AM

Interesting discussion - different from the usual body recomp topics.

To answer your question about "..what kind of practice.." the paper by Ericsson et al. says it needs to be deliberate. I'm not sure what that means, maybe with sufficient rewards to keep motivation high. But Ericsson's paper says that its enough just to do the practice. If you can do it deliberately for 10 years then you are going to be expert. That the better music students could keep track of what they did with their time is an indication of their deliberate intention.

So, just doing it any old random way would not make you an expert. You have to practice with some structure, I guess. Keep track of workouts? Get motivation by winning races, etc.

On your mention of information chucking into 7 digits/entities, I wonder if the practical limit of 7 applies to doing learned movements? For example, you can tie your shoe at the same time that you learn a 7 digit phone number. Same thing when you are talking and walking, even though walking is a complex task. It took you a couple of years to learn how to walk and now you do it so well that its become nearly autonomic.

lylemcd 06-24-2009 09:33 AM

To the last question: maybe.

To the first question: WAIT FOR PART 2.

Pikku 06-24-2009 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltmiller (Post 42296)
On your mention of information chucking into 7 digits/entities, I wonder if the practical limit of 7 applies to doing learned movements? For example, you can tie your shoe at the same time that you learn a 7 digit phone number. Same thing when you are talking and walking, even though walking is a complex task. It took you a couple of years to learn how to walk and now you do it so well that its become nearly autonomic.

I'm wondering about this also, on one hand im thinking it would be possible but on the other hand the movement, control etc has to be retrieved from longtm to shorttm for you to actually do it so it might be packaged as 1peice of info rather than taking up all 7 'spaces' as it might when it first was being learned

lylemcd 06-26-2009 01:46 PM

Part 2

waltmiller 06-26-2009 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pikku (Post 42486)
I'm wondering about this also, on one hand im thinking it would be possible but on the other hand the movement, control etc has to be retrieved from longtm to shorttm for you to actually do it so it might be packaged as 1peice of info rather than taking up all 7 'spaces' as it might when it first was being learned

Yes, just the milliseconds of retrieval that it takes to say to myself, I'm going to walk over to the fridge and get a protein drink. That leaves a lot of time to spend thinking about whether I want to eat something else or watch a movie. Walking and stuff like that... I suspect some of these near-autonomic movements are pushed "lower in the brain" somewhere, maybe even kind of hard wired into the system so you don't have to think about them.

On TV they had a show about some family in the mid-East with a genetic abnormality in their brains that they were missing the ability to walk upright. They had other normal coordination and function, but just couldn't walk without falling down.

I'm going to take a guess and say that you are female. I remember always being able to memorize a girl's phone number while I we were walking out of the club or party. Sure, I'd look for something to write it on, but if she was hot, it'd get memorized. ah... that was a few years ago...

I forget why I'm on this thread now.

lylemcd 06-27-2009 09:50 AM

A big part of long-term motor learning is moving the activities from conscious thought to deeper processing so that it is automated. We don't remember the stuff we went through as a kid (e.g. learning to walk) but adults who try to learn a new skill typically go through three phases, which I'm going to get wrong. But essentially wnen you first start learning you have to think about it in detail. Over time, it becomes more automatedand the ultimate goal is for it to become completely automated.

This actaully has an interesting implication and explains the oft found reality that the best athletes are the worst coaches. Experts essentially demonstrate amnesia of the skills that they express. If you ask anathlete what he's 'thinking about' during a given skill, he can't really remember; if it's automated, he's NOT thinking about it. In fact, they often can't tell you what they are doing during the activity. This makes it difficult for them to explain to others what to do.

and if you want to screw with someone better than you (e.g. you're getting whooped in tennis), ask them 'So how do you do that backhand' right before a point. Getting them thinking about the movement consciously is actaully WORSE for them because it brings the skill up from the autonomous stage to the conscious stage. And isn't as efficient.

waltmiller 06-27-2009 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lylemcd (Post 42992)
...thinking about the movement consciously is actaully WORSE for them because it brings the skill up from the autonomous stage to the conscious stage. And isn't as efficient.

He he, getting the competition psyched out...

Yes, I notice this in a couple of situations. One right now is when I'm typing. Since I learned typing in high school, its become automated. But, if I look at the keyboard and think about it at all, I get lost and can't type.

Another situation is mountain biking on technical terrain. If I'm fresh, the body english just comes after 25 years of doing it. But an hour or two later, when I'm tired and remind myself to be careful, I get scared, tense up, think about the terrain, and then increase the risk of doing an endo (crash! *&#%$).

lylemcd 06-27-2009 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltmiller (Post 43009)
He he, getting the competition psyched out...

Not exactly psyching them out but the end result is basically the same.

Runmlz 06-27-2009 04:53 PM

Interesting stuff Lyle. Thanks for writing it and sharing with us.


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