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-   -   The Effect of Two Energy-Restricted Diets, a Low-Fructose Di (http://forums.lylemcdonald.com//showthread.php?t=11432)

lylemcd 06-15-2011 08:39 AM

The Effect of Two Energy-Restricted Diets, a Low-Fructose Di
 
Research review

Aussieguy 06-15-2011 05:36 PM

I will be eating my apple today in honour of this article :)

Quote:

In one that people like to cite at me, rats (rarely a good model for humans)
Lyle, I did a bit of a google of your site to see what I could see...would you consider a Q&A type article to explain this further?

lylemcd 06-15-2011 06:38 PM

To explain what: why rats are a bad model for humans? How about because every single aspect of their physiology is different?

Aussieguy 06-15-2011 07:47 PM

So, why are they used?
Take home point for the layman - as soon as I see articles citing rat (or mice?) studies to prove its point, I would be better of ignoring that article?

popupwindow 06-15-2011 08:03 PM

Good review, I always wondered who first promoted the idea that fruit makes you fat. I figured it was atkins.

Typo:
'2.09+-6.32% in the low-fructose group compared to 2.89+06.33%'


Quote:

Originally Posted by Aussieguy (Post 141960)
So, why are they used?
Take home point for the layman - as soon as I see articles citing rat (or mice?) studies to prove its point, I would be better of ignoring that article?

They're used because they're cheap, you can fully control their lives in terms of food and exercise, they die after around 2 years, and you can do stuff to them you could never ethically do to humans. The studies aren't 100% bad, lyle used a lot of them in his leptin series, but don't believe all the mice studies, especially in terms of supplements. Always give far more weight to the evidence presented in human studies.

josh_67 06-15-2011 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by popupwindow;
Good review, I always wondered who first promoted the idea that fruit makes you fat. I figured it was atkins.

Not only Atkins but at the other end of the spectrum, the John 'Parrilo Diet'.

lylemcd 06-15-2011 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by popupwindow (Post 141964)

They're used because they're cheap, you can fully control their lives in terms of food and exercise, they die after around 2 years, and you can do stuff to them you could never ethically do to humans. The studies aren't 100% bad, lyle used a lot of them in his leptin series, but don't believe all the mice studies, especially in terms of supplements. Always give far more weight to the evidence presented in human studies.

No, Lyle did not USE a lot of them in his leptin series. I mentioned a bunch of them and repeatedly pointed out how they didn't apply to humans. They were simply used early on as the system was being figured out. And most of that work was done before leptin was even discovered. The knew about the OB rat and the DB rat and hooked 'em up and made a bunch of postulations. And 50 years later they discovered leptin.

And then they ended up not applying outside of a handful of situations (ie.. the roughly half a dozen people who are OB gene deficient and don't produce leptin at all).

The closest model is the DIO rat in terms of how leptin resistance occurs in response to overfeeding with a poor diet.

lylemcd 06-15-2011 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by popupwindow (Post 141964)
they die after around 2 years,

And this is a HUGE part of the problem. Mice/rats work at about 3-7X the rate as humans do due to a shorter life span which means taht everything that happens in their bodies happens that much faster (this is thought to be one of the reasons that CLA does astounding things in murine models and jack squat in humans).

Which is why a lot of things (like metabolic slowdown after a single meal) happens in rats/mice and NOT in humans. 6 months in rat time is equivalent to something like 5-10 years in human time. So one meal to a rat is like a day or two of eating for a human.

Here's another issue that no-one seems to be aware of: unlike humans (who store lots of nutrients in muscle cells), rats and mice rely exclusively on blood borne fuels. This is why they adapt to wonderfully to things like high-fat diets and such. Flood their bloodstreams with fatty acids and they burn tons of fat. Do it in humans and, well....it's just not the same.

Rats/mice don't glycogen load, for example either. Which is why high carb diets cause tons of DNL in them (the carbs have nowhere to go becuase they aren't stored in muscle or liver) but not in humans.

On and on it goes.

popupwindow 06-15-2011 09:10 PM

My bad, I read the leptin series and bromo book quite a while ago, I remember you mentioning how the leptin theories developed on mice not panning out for humans, but I just remembered a lot of mice stuff being mentioned, that's all.

dyriao 06-16-2011 03:07 AM

I remember reading on weightology that, if you're restricting calories, fruit is ok, if you're bulking, fruit will transform into fat.


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