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  #121  
Unread 11-17-2017, 11:32 AM
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Liberty Liberty is online now
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I guess I see a weekly 48-hour fast as more extreme, and less "long-term normality," than a day of RFL here and there!

And if you've been overweight for a long time or you aren't really in tune with nutrient-dense eating and your body's needs, you can't just suddenly say "I'll eat normally." You don't have a normal. You have your familiar way of eating that got you fat, and you have your diet that got you thin.

To find what "normal" maintenance is, you need external feedback -- such as the number on the scale. Maybe any given day the number is somewhat arbitrary (you're retaining water, you need to make a big poop, whatever) but over time it's going to tell you what you want to know: am I eating above maintenance calories, or below? And then you use that feedback to adjust. "I thought I was eating to satiation, but I'm gaining weight. I need to find lower-calorie foods that satisfy me, or I need to rethink what 'full' feels like."

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Mental games can help as well: "Do I want to eat this pie now and gains n% of fat, or have a healthy/decent body?"
It's a good move but again, you need some external feedback to help you set up those mental games. Is it every piece of pie? How big a piece of pie? How much is n%?

It seems to me that taking an RFL day every time you cross a threshhold would be a good way to track that feedback. E.g., you ate pie every night for dinner last month and had to take 5 RFL days. Maybe you decide to eat half a piece, or only eat dessert on weekends, and then you only take one RFL day the next month, so you know you're zeroing in on maintenance. (And THEN you can play the mental games: do I want this whole piece of pie now knowing I'll have to take an extra RFL day soon?)

I mean, if you're constantly yo-yoing, one day off RFL and the next day on, you aren't eating anywhere close to maintenance. But then obviously you need a lot of work on what "maintenance" eating is going to look like long-term.


Disclaimer: I have never maintained weight loss successfully and can only talk about what doesn't work -- and speculate from there what might! I may well be talking out of my rear end.
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  #122  
Unread 11-17-2017, 12:16 PM
Determinism Determinism is offline
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Originally Posted by Liberty View Post
I guess I see a weekly 48-hour fast as more extreme, and less "long-term normality," than a day of RFL here and there!
You'd be surprised how easy and natural it feels. Especially when carrying sufficient amounts of fat. It also makes sense evolutionary speaking.


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Originally Posted by Liberty View Post
And if you've been overweight for a long time or you aren't really in tune with nutrient-dense eating and your body's needs, you can't just suddenly say "I'll eat normally." You don't have a normal. You have your familiar way of eating that got you fat, and you have your diet that got you thin.
If it would be normal, one wouldn't be overweight. Diet doesn't get you thin. Lifestyle doesn't get you thin. In actuality, being "thin" is natural. What's not natural is all the crap and temptation we're confronted with together with our cultural rules which we think are normal, but in fact they're not. It's far from normal. We all fall trap to it once we are born and raised.


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Originally Posted by Liberty View Post
To find what "normal" maintenance is, you need external feedback -- such as the number on the scale. Maybe any given day the number is somewhat arbitrary (you're retaining water, you need to make a big poop, whatever) but over time it's going to tell you what you want to know: am I eating above maintenance calories, or below? And then you use that feedback to adjust. "I thought I was eating to satiation, but I'm gaining weight. I need to find lower-calorie foods that satisfy me, or I need to rethink what 'full' feels like."
Correct, but that wasn't the point. Besides, there's no need for external factors in the bigger picture. Internal factors are the only things that matter when you're looking for a healthy and sustainable body. All external factors are a facade and will become destructive or counterproductive in the long run.


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Originally Posted by Liberty View Post
It's a good move but again, you need some external feedback to help you set up those mental games. Is it every piece of pie? How big a piece of pie? How much is n%?
Again, that wasn't the point. It was just an abstract way of communicating the concept of playing mind games. Just fill it in with your own mental cue and it'll work for you. Forget my example. Just understand the point.


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Originally Posted by Liberty View Post
It seems to me that taking an RFL day every time you cross a threshhold would be a good way to track that feedback. E.g., you ate pie every night for dinner last month and had to take 5 RFL days. Maybe you decide to eat half a piece, or only eat dessert on weekends, and then you only take one RFL day the next month, so you know you're zeroing in on maintenance. (And THEN you can play the mental games: do I want this whole piece of pie now knowing I'll have to take an extra RFL day soon?)

I mean, if you're constantly yo-yoing, one day off RFL and the next day on, you aren't eating anywhere close to maintenance. But then obviously you need a lot of work on what "maintenance" eating is going to look like long-term.
If you're yo-yoing then there's your "external" signal/measurement that something is wrong. I find it shocking that we as western human beings struggle a lot just to maintain a healthy body. If that doesn't set off any alarm bells, I don't know what will.
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  #123  
Unread 11-17-2017, 12:30 PM
patriots2 patriots2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Determinism View Post
You'd be surprised how easy and natural it feels. Especially when carrying sufficient amounts of fat. It also makes sense evolutionary speaking.




If it would be normal, one wouldn't be overweight. Diet doesn't get you thin. Lifestyle doesn't get you thin. In actuality, being "thin" is natural. What's not natural is all the crap and temptation we're confronted with together with our cultural rules which we think are normal, but in fact they're not. It's far from normal. We all fall trap to it once we are born and raised.




Correct, but that wasn't the point. Besides, there's no need for external factors in the bigger picture. Internal factors are the only things that matter when you're looking for a healthy and sustainable body. All external factors are a facade and will become destructive or counterproductive in the long run.




Again, that wasn't the point. It was just an abstract way of communicating the concept of playing mind games. Just fill it in with your own mental cue and it'll work for you. Forget my example. Just understand the point.




If you're yo-yoing then there's your "external" signal/measurement that something is wrong. I find it shocking that we as western human beings struggle a lot just to maintain a healthy body. If that doesn't set off any alarm bells, I don't know what will.
Agree with 48-hour fasting. Did about 6 runs of 40-48 hour fasts over 21-day period a few weeks back. Hunger non-existent.

Find sleeping difficult, though. You? Have often you run fasts of that length.
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  #124  
Unread 11-17-2017, 02:05 PM
Determinism Determinism is offline
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Originally Posted by patriots2 View Post
Agree with 48-hour fasting. Did about 6 runs of 40-48 hour fasts over 21-day period a few weeks back. Hunger non-existent.

Find sleeping difficult, though. You? Have often you run fasts of that length.
Hunger can certainly be an issue. Especially on short fasts (i.e. 24-48 hours). After a few days, the body "gets used to it" and hunger will not be an issue anymore. You see the same anecdotes from people running RFL for a few days.

The problem arises because of chronic/frequent consumption of food (mainly carbs and to a lesser extend protein) signaling the body it's time to feast. The body, in turn, primes you to eat (e.g. you become hungry). If you fast for a few days, the body understands its time to migrate/walk or whatever evolution had us to do. Hunger will not be useful when migrating (or hunting for that matter) so it's suppressed and irrelevant within the current environmental conditions.

Anyway, if you do short fasts and have trouble sleeping, you can try melatonin.

I also happen to notice that I need much less sleep when fasting and have a very clear mind. The wonders of ketone bodies :-)

Last edited by Determinism : 11-17-2017 at 02:10 PM.
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  #125  
Unread 11-17-2017, 08:11 PM
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davidjr74 davidjr74 is offline
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Great discussion guys/gals. Very useful information was gained. My long commutes I have watched videos on fasting/ketogenic diets recently. Yes, like Liberty said, I'm at the stage where I had habits that got me fat and I had a diet that got me thin - now I'm at a stage that may take a while to find what I need to do to maintain the loss. I'm doing the crazy RFL yo-yo thing now (not sustainable for obvious reasons now) but I have learned a few things recently.

@Determinism
Do you happen to be familiar with Dr. Jason Fung? I don't believe the 48 hour fasts are so crazy as I would have suspected. I was quite surprised when 2 here chimed in on it...I have actually done this today. I haven't eaten anything and after some initial hunger around lunch time; the hunger actually subsided.

Lyle has a very excellent article on Insulin
https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fa...fat-loss.html/

No it isn't about fasting, but I'm noticing quite a bit of connection between fasting and keeping insulin levels low. I found in your post and Lyle's article about how protein can ellict an insulin response; I did not know that. I really thought I was just crazy that I could actually get more hungry after eating a measured 400 grams of protein from chicken breast! I was thinking...isn't this suppose to be satiating?

This has gotten me thinking that I should try out a higher-fat, moderate protein, low carb diet coupled with an intermittent fasting schedule. Alternate day fasting sounds plausible but if that doesn't work out for me I'm going to aim for a 6pm-10pm schedule. That would get me 20-22 hours of fasting a day which is also not too bad.

I think what I might do now is just do a food log for a couple of weeks and not check my weight so much. The good news is it looks like I got this new job which is much closer to home (and thus frees me 3 hours a day of commuting!) and I'm definitely wanting to get back into the gym. I haven't lifted in over a year now..
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  #126  
Unread 11-17-2017, 09:33 PM
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Liberty Liberty is online now
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Wooooo, congrats on the job!!!!
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  #127  
Unread 11-18-2017, 02:36 AM
Determinism Determinism is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidjr74 View Post
now I'm at a stage that may take a while to find what I need to do to maintain the loss.
If you don't mind me saying: there's your problem. One shouldn't "maintain fat loss". One should "prevent fat gain". If that makes sense. Being within a normal body fat percentage is exactly what it is: normal. Your body and mind should completely be in tune with that idea/concept. So, instead of finding a way to maintain a loss find a way to prevent excessive fat gain.

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Originally Posted by davidjr74 View Post
@Determinism
Do you happen to be familiar with Dr. Jason Fung? I don't believe the 48 hour fasts are so crazy as I would have suspected. I was quite surprised when 2 here chimed in on it...I have actually done this today. I haven't eaten anything and after some initial hunger around lunch time; the hunger actually subsided.
Wow, good for you. I'm not familiar with him, but then again, I'm horrible at remembering names, research or anything for that matter. Except for the initial hunger being fasted is very beneficial. A small exception has to be made for high performance athletes or lifters. For them, it may not be optimal. But hey, we don't need to go to the Olympic games :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidjr74 View Post
Lyle has a very excellent article on Insulin
https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fa...fat-loss.html/

No it isn't about fasting, but I'm noticing quite a bit of connection between fasting and keeping insulin levels low. I found in your post and Lyle's article about how protein can ellict an insulin response; I did not know that. I really thought I was just crazy that I could actually get more hungry after eating a measured 400 grams of protein from chicken breast! I was thinking...isn't this suppose to be satiating?
Very keen observation. I'm not 100% sure research has already confirmed it, but based on anecdotes that's exactly what you hear. Ironically, food makes you eat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidjr74 View Post
This has gotten me thinking that I should try out a higher-fat, moderate protein, low carb diet coupled with an intermittent fasting schedule. Alternate day fasting sounds plausible but if that doesn't work out for me I'm going to aim for a 6pm-10pm schedule. That would get me 20-22 hours of fasting a day which is also not too bad.
That sounds like a valid strategy. That's the exact same strategy I've been applying to my RFL runs. Small note: your body wants to eat more food in one sitting because it's been deprived of it most of the day. Because some individuals may tend to binge eat on junk food, start with a lot of vegetables and protein and you'll do fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidjr74 View Post
I think what I might do now is just do a food log for a couple of weeks and not check my weight so much. The good news is it looks like I got this new job which is much closer to home (and thus frees me 3 hours a day of commuting!) and I'm definitely wanting to get back into the gym. I haven't lifted in over a year now..
That's great news. It's almost January 1st 2018. Couldn't be a better time for New Year's resolutions ;-)
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  #128  
Unread 11-19-2017, 11:22 AM
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davidjr74 davidjr74 is offline
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Originally Posted by Liberty View Post
Wooooo, congrats on the job!!!!
Yes...tomorrow I'm expecting an offer but will try to negotiate salary with my current employer!

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Originally Posted by Determinism View Post
If you don't mind me saying: there's your problem. One shouldn't "maintain fat loss". One should "prevent fat gain". If that makes sense. Being within a normal body fat percentage is exactly what it is: normal. Your body and mind should completely be in tune with that idea/concept. So, instead of finding a way to maintain a loss find a way to prevent excessive fat gain.

Makes sense - I'm all for the psychology of framing. If I frame it this way, it would make more sense.

Wow, good for you. I'm not familiar with him, but then again, I'm horrible at remembering names, research or anything for that matter. Except for the initial hunger being fasted is very beneficial. A small exception has to be made for high performance athletes or lifters. For them, it may not be optimal. But hey, we don't need to go to the Olympic games :-)

True. Even if I was lifting consistently, 16:8 protocol could still work well. Would never train fasted; too much benefits of pre-workout nutrition imo.

Very keen observation. I'm not 100% sure research has already confirmed it, but based on anecdotes that's exactly what you hear. Ironically, food makes you eat.

It is true for sure.

That sounds like a valid strategy. That's the exact same strategy I've been applying to my RFL runs. Small note: your body wants to eat more food in one sitting because it's been deprived of it most of the day. Because some individuals may tend to binge eat on junk food, start with a lot of vegetables and protein and you'll do fine.


This is very true. My smelling senses go up like crazy as well. My mind gets kind of primal.


That's great news. It's almost January 1st 2018. Couldn't be a better time for New Year's resolutions ;-)

Yea! Aiming for a bang in 2018. More likely a different job, gonna start lifting, gonna be a great year.
In practice, I'm aiming for ADF but if I have to eat or I'm compelled to eat, than I'm trying to stay within a 5 hour window between 5-10pm. For instance here is how it would work out in practice where I allow flexibility in the IF schedule.

Sunday: Eat between 5-10pm
Monday: No food consumption
Tuesday: Can consume all day
Wednesday: Tried to eat nothing, but wife made good dinner. Eat between 5-10pm
Thursday: Can either not eat or aim for 5-10pm again depending on circumstances.

You get the picture...on any given day I can switch between ADF or the 5-10pm eating window.

I weighed 169.8lbs a few days ago but will only begin tracking weight now every 2 weeks. Will check my weight again on December 1. Will see how this trends.

Last edited by davidjr74 : 11-19-2017 at 11:25 AM.
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  #129  
Unread 11-22-2017, 07:58 AM
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davidjr74 davidjr74 is offline
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Still going strong with the intermittent fasting. Mostly been sticking to a 16:8 hour window but some days it is like a 20:4 hour window. Stuck to my word and haven't checked my weight.

Also I got the job and reduced my commute from 90 minutes one way to 30 minutes. That was the big benefit. The pay was only slight more than I make now but the increase was large enough to where I could comfortably afford a gym membership and than some. My spouse was happy to say the least and I'm going to have much more time with my son.

Overall pretty happy. 2018 is shaping up nicely.
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  #130  
Unread 11-23-2017, 11:56 PM
patriots2 patriots2 is offline
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Originally Posted by davidjr74 View Post
Still going strong with the intermittent fasting. Mostly been sticking to a 16:8 hour window but some days it is like a 20:4 hour window. Stuck to my word and haven't checked my weight.

Also I got the job and reduced my commute from 90 minutes one way to 30 minutes. That was the big benefit. The pay was only slight more than I make now but the increase was large enough to where I could comfortably afford a gym membership and than some. My spouse was happy to say the least and I'm going to have much more time with my son.

Overall pretty happy. 2018 is shaping up nicely.
Congrats on the new job. 2-hours less commute is magical for you and your family too.

Your perseverance is paying off big time. Ending 2017 on fire. Continue to Build on positives in 2018.
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