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  #1  
Unread 01-31-2012, 12:46 PM
nfriedman35 nfriedman35 is offline
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Default Running Program

can anyone suggest a book or website that lays out a proper running program (going over everything from proper form to pace and distance)? I would like to start from the introductory level. would be adding running to my routine to aid in bjj endurance, so i don't think i would need to go long distances, but since I'm clueless about it not gonna rule anything out. any help would be much appreciated. thanks
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  #2  
Unread 01-31-2012, 02:33 PM
FutureisNow FutureisNow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nfriedman35 View Post
can anyone suggest a book or website that lays out a proper running program (going over everything from proper form to pace and distance)? I would like to start from the introductory level. would be adding running to my routine to aid in bjj endurance, so i don't think i would need to go long distances, but since I'm clueless about it not gonna rule anything out. any help would be much appreciated. thanks
I'd suggest Lyle's main site for some solid information

For running specifically, I've been getting a lot out of Jeff Galloway's
ideas lately. He's known for Marathon's but also has 5/10K plans,
and is geared for beginners. Training for a 5K is going to be more than enough for crosstraining purposes.

http://www.jeffgalloway.com/training/beginners.html
http://www.jeffgalloway.com/training/5k.html for example.

If you are not injuring yourself regulary, then probably your form is good enough.

Some thoughts:

Pronation is desired, overproation not. Try to land on the full mid-foot to fore-foot and push off the "big toe".

A common mistake is overstriding. This can lead to increased fatigue and injuries. One thing I learned has been to maintaining a somewhat faster than natural pace, between 170-180 steps per minute. This creates a shorter stride, and improves turnover and balance. My injury rate has gone way down doing this.

Regarding intermittent running vs continuous, JG is a believer in using walk breaks during continuous running. It allows for the body avoid repetitive use injuries and recover more quickly, without affecting fitness development.
So even his long runs are broken up by walk breaks.

2 days per week is the minimum amount it takes to cause adaptations, although 1 day per week intense can maintain fitness. More than 5 days
per week does not seem to confer any additional benefit. However, 3-4 days per week is usually recommended.

Besides Lyle's site, I have been reading pubmed intervals studies. In untrained such as yourself, they can increase all aspects of aerobic fitness;
cardiac output and oxygen uptake by muscles, which normally they are not recognized for doing. In already trained individuals, there is no benefit in this regard; but there is resultant improvement to running economy. I can post the study if you would like it ... it involves using 30 on/30 off/*10-12 95% max speed intervals. Probably not to be advised until you are solid on your feet.

Although the idea that training aerobic conditioning helps with recovery from anaerobic bouts makes intutitve sense, it's something that hasn't been proven out by science yet: at least according to my exercise physiology textbook. Joel Jameison might disagree. He has a whole website, book and enterprise devoted to conditioning for combat athletes.
www.8weeksout.com

Have fun with it ...

Last edited by FutureisNow : 01-31-2012 at 02:38 PM.
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  #3  
Unread 01-31-2012, 02:42 PM
Bonham Bonham is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nfriedman35 View Post
can anyone suggest a book or website that lays out a proper running program (going over everything from proper form to pace and distance)? I would like to start from the introductory level. would be adding running to my routine to aid in bjj endurance, so i don't think i would need to go long distances, but since I'm clueless about it not gonna rule anything out. any help would be much appreciated. thanks
The couch to 5k plan is pretty solid if you are new to running and will get you where you want to go.

http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_3/181.shtml
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  #4  
Unread 01-31-2012, 03:15 PM
Not Sure Not Sure is offline
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For running training plans of what track folks call "long distance," try this out:
http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/index...ages/article/3

For running training plans for sprints and middle distance, try this out:
http://speedendurance.com/

I posted those really just to help people in the future that are interested in running, I don't know that they'll help the OP.

Remember, you have to train specifically for the event.

What are you REALLY after?

Because training to run 5K is not necessarily going to help you in wrestling (yeah it's technically bjj but it's still a combat sport based on grappling).

Getting really good at a steady-state aerobic activity for 20-25 minute periods (like running a 5K) is probably not ideal for conditioning a wrestler.

What kind of activity do you do in a bjj match? Or during a bjj class? I bet it is something intermittent, with some moments of really heated violent action and then some periods where you can catch your breath, right?

There's a time limit, right? Either a single time limit like in USABJJ of 5 to 10 minutes, or rounds like 3 by 5 minutes with 1 minute im-between like in MMA?

So if I were gonna train for something like a 5-minute match, I wouldn't run at a steady pace for a long time. I'd probably do something like hit a football field or track and sprint 100 yards then jog back 100 yards, and repeat for several minutes at a time. Maybe start with 5 minutes and some half-hearted "sprints" with jogs and try to increase the intensity of the sprints over time, or maybe start with sprinting at top speed (jogging back) and doing 2 minutes, working up to 5 minutes as I built stamina.

Edit to add:

I wouldn't have to RUN to train endurance like this. I could in theory use an exercise bike and the same on/off principle, or use Burpees alternated with jogging in place, or skip rope at different paces (like boxers do), etc. I don't know if bjj has the equivalent of shadowboxing but you could use bjj drills for conditioning, with the same on/off and time limit principles. There are dozens of ways to get after the same effect.

And, of course, wherever I started conditioning training should be appropriate to my current level of conditioning.

Last edited by Not Sure : 01-31-2012 at 03:23 PM.
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  #5  
Unread 01-31-2012, 03:40 PM
nfriedman35 nfriedman35 is offline
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solid stuff. thanks everyone
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  #6  
Unread 01-31-2012, 09:23 PM
Jibaholic Jibaholic is offline
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Not Sure wrote:
Quote:
So if I were gonna train for something like a 5-minute match, I wouldn't run at a steady pace for a long time. I'd probably do something like hit a football field or track and sprint 100 yards then jog back 100 yards, and repeat for several minutes at a time.
I am really surprised that you see so much of the "do intervals, not steady state cardio" on a savvy website like Lyle's forums. I think it is very misguided.

1. Forget the "what would you rather look like, a marathon runner or a sprinter?" Besides the different amounts of weight training (and steroids), consider other endurance athletes like rowers. Look at the bodies of these olympic rowers.



They aren't going to win Mr. Olympia, but they are pretty muscular guys. I could do something similar for swimmers, cross country skiers, and speed skaters. It's really only the runners and the cyclists who are skinny.

2. You are already lifting weights (right?), and you are doing MMA practices often. You are already going well past your body's optimal recovery point for muscle growth (if you dropped the MMA you could concentrate on strength training and get bigger). So why do you want to add a brutal HIIT session and go even further beyond your recover? Instead,do some nice easy steady state cardio at 140 BPM to 155 BPM or so. Don't flood your muscles with even more lactic acid. Don't hammer your muscles with killer workouts that make your legs shake. Steady state cardio can be even gentler on the body if you choose a non-impact non-eccentric form of cardio like rowing or cycling.

3. The anaerobic energy systems peak out quickly. You can pretty much max them out in 12 weeks or so. (Hence the tabata study featured on the main site showing that gains level off after 12 weeks). By contrast, it takes years to develop your anaerobic motor. You have to make your heart strong like any muscle and that takes a long time. It also takes a long time to develop your capillary networks throughout your muscles.

3a. The aerobic system dominates surprisingly early. A 1500 meter race takes world class athletes about 3 and a half minutes, and it is about 75% aerobic energy system. Now, an MMA fight has peaks and valleys in intensity, but you are going for 15 minutes over a 17 minute time span. A fight lasts a lot longer than a 1500 meter race. The idea that an MMA fight has demands on the energy systems closer to the 400 meters than the 1500 meters makes little sense.

Now, I think HIIT is great. You need to train the anaerobic systems for a fight so it demands some time and effort. And I've noticed in my own training that if I ignore GPP totally that I have no work capacity and tend to drag through workouts. But if I add a short HIIT session or two I can get through my workouts with a lot more intensity. HIIT is the quick easy way to get decent GPP. But if you want to be a good fighter and maximize your precious recovery, take the long road and develop your aerobic energy system. And you'll need more than 4 or 12 minutes two or three times a week to do that.

Last edited by Jibaholic : 01-31-2012 at 09:30 PM.
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  #7  
Unread 02-01-2012, 01:46 AM
FutureisNow FutureisNow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nfriedman35 View Post
adding running to my routine to aid in bjj endurance
Another aspect is whether your bjj is too intense and is using more
brawn than brains. Gassing out may indicate that you're expending
too much energy going after submissions, not relaxing or breathing
properly too.

That said, how much cardio you need to add depends on how bad
it is currently. You don't need to train for a specific event, unless you like the structure and the idea
of performing it at some point. Nick Diaz's game doesn't seem
to be hurt by triathalon training, though I'm sure he cuts it down before a fight.
Running isn't the only way of course; stationary cycling may have less hassle to deal with.

If time is a premium, intervals can be of aid and can provide
improvement in a matter of weeks. They are especially effective in the less trained:
whether aerobic gains taper off is secondary - the question is are they enough for you?

Local muscular endurance is a seperate animal that can be trained as well.

Last edited by FutureisNow : 02-01-2012 at 02:02 AM.
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  #8  
Unread 02-01-2012, 01:51 AM
cxw cxw is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibaholic View Post
...By contrast, it takes years to develop your anaerobic motor.
Apart from the typo above (should be aerobic), that's a fine post.

Last edited by cxw : 02-01-2012 at 02:02 AM.
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  #9  
Unread 02-01-2012, 02:10 AM
cxw cxw is offline
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In addition, even quite a few elite 400m runners do a bit of steady state.

Also, you can find on the web, an MMA fight between Maurice Smith and Mark Coleman. Coleman after around 3 minutes ends up looking like he's just finished a marathon, he never recovers and just looks exhausted for the rest of the fight. Coleman did pretty much zero steady state cardio.
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  #10  
Unread 02-01-2012, 06:39 AM
Not Sure Not Sure is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibaholic View Post
I am really surprised that you see so much of the "do intervals, not steady state cardio" on a savvy website like Lyle's forums. I think it is very misguided.
I think you're almost totally ignoring the fact that running for 5+ minutes nonstop is a heckuva aerobic workout as well. Re-read.

I don't suggest sprints with rest in-between, I suggest running for a period that meets match duration, but alternating intensities of work during that period. More like an intense f-a-r-t-l-e-k than anything else, or running a hilly course while charging up the hills, but doing it on a track (or an exercise cycle) gives you more objective control of the variables.

As aerobic fitness increases, one can (1) increase the intensity of the sprints, (2) increase the intensity of the non-sprints, (3) increase the total duration of the workout, or (4) some mix of the above.

I agree in principle that a well-rounded conditioning program needs both aspects worked. Suggesting either steady-state or intervals alone would be flawed.

However, noting the limited total duration of the OP's planned events, I think the OP could work both aspects to a large degree with a workout that combined aspects of both SS and HIT.

... like continuous running for a period determined by the OP's planned duration, but alternating intensity to match the varied demands of the event.
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