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  #11  
Unread 01-06-2013, 11:15 PM
mahalin mahalin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmbassadorW0lfe View Post
I would daresay a EOD setup where a slight caloric surplus/carb-up on lifting days and a PSMF/relatively large caloric deficit on off days would suffice for most males.

For females, some SFS strategies may be necessary.



This is a big point of controversy and really, IF threads aren't allowed on the forums anymore. I'll say this: there is no research that confirms IF does anything beyond restrict calories for the duration of the fast. So any claims regarding increased insulin sensitivity or stubborn fat lipolysis are speculative AT BEST. So it would be faulty to credit any calorie partitioning due to IF as a strategy.

If anything, improved calorie partitioning would be due to increased insulin sensitivity as a result of hypertrophy training and glycogen depletion. As far as calorie partitioning goes, the concepts regarding glycogen depletion/supercompensation from UD2.0 as well as threads where Myles Buckley discusses bromo and other dopamine supplements will be helpful. In addition to studying up on leptin.
The EOD setup is probably the most convenient. I'm not sure what the other alternatives there are? UD is one but that is very rigid and demanding. Permanent low-carb might be another option but that limits muscle growth due to the inherent catabolic nature and depends on the individual's tolerance. I can't imagine permanent low-carb . Other cyclical diets?

When I said calorie partitioning I had more in mind the idea of eating around workout time since that is also an emphasis of IF/LG. Let's see, improved calorie partitioning means increasing the tendency of nutrients to go toward LBM rather than being store as fat, primarily by manipulating the endocrine system (nice definition, eh? lol). Currently drugs, diet and exercise are the only proven methods. Hmm...I think I see what you mean with the bolded statement.

Where I made the mistake was crediting fasting to improved calorie partitioning which is lacking evidence (did some rereading). Rather the improved calorie partitioning is mainly due to exercise as you described. Got it. Without venturing too far, IF/LG then could be similar to meal timing and around workout nutrition, and there are already studies on that. With that said, IF/LG seems redundant or more a preferential thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
"I think to keep stubborn fat at bay, you have to exercise including both resistance exercise and aerobic exercise"

I don't agree with this. I've been using the LG method for some time and have kept BF at 10%ish with no aerobic exercise. Many others have done the same. Not saying it's the only way but it is one.
Did you do any resistance exercise or simply dieting by itself? The a2 receptors won't be inhibited without low-carb/cardio or (high-carb)yohimbine/cardio or doing SFP 1/2. Or you're keeping general body fat off instead, as 10% is borderline according to SFP. This would mean to keep stubborn fat off, some form of carb cycling might be needed, or doing yohimbine or SFP 1/2 protocols? SFP says several days of low carb are needed to inhibit a2 receptors. So EOD with low-carb/cardio would not be effective as the low carb phase is not long enough to inhibit a2 receptors. However, people seem to have great success with EOD. Another option would be EOD with yohimbine/cardio or SFP 1/2. As for power training/muscle gain, see SFP 1/2 details.

Maybe fasting really is mimicking low-carb? I saw Ambassador's thread on this. If it is, then most likely it must be improving insulin sensitivity as well? Nothing conclusive; all we have is numerous anecdotal evidence lol.

Last edited by mahalin : 01-06-2013 at 11:50 PM.
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  #12  
Unread 01-07-2013, 04:47 AM
MrkyMrk MrkyMrk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
"I think to keep stubborn fat at bay, you have to exercise including both resistance exercise and aerobic exercise"

I don't agree with this. I've been using the LG method for some time and have kept BF at 10%ish with no aerobic exercise. Many others have done the same. Not saying it's the only way but it is one.
At 10%, you're not in the stubborn fat zone.
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  #13  
Unread 01-07-2013, 12:20 PM
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JustinB JustinB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrkyMrk View Post
At 10%, you're not in the stubborn fat zone.
Where is the zone?
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  #14  
Unread 01-07-2013, 01:42 PM
MrkyMrk MrkyMrk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
Where is the zone?
By the book, it's getting down to competition lean levels - into the single digits.
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  #15  
Unread 01-07-2013, 04:34 PM
mahalin mahalin is offline
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@OP
To answer your question directly and to summarize, so far here are your options:
  1. Ambassador's humble suggestion:
    Quote:
    EOD setup where a slight caloric surplus/carb-up on lifting days and a PSMF/relatively large caloric deficit on off days would suffice for most males.
    If I may add to his suggestion, more specifically the training could consist of SFP 1/2 protocols with some power training. And ofc most of the calories would be around workout time. For example:
    Mon - PSMF - Off or brief low-intensity cardio
    Tues - HC - SFP 1/2
    Wed - PSMF - Off or brief low-intensity cardio
    Thurs - HC -SFP 1/2
    Fri - PSMF - Off or brief low-intensity cardio
    Sat - HC - Power training
    Sun - PSMF - Off or brief low-intensity cardio
    Somebody correct me if I'm wrong about this...
  2. My humble suggestion:
    Doing low-carb for a couple days (3 min. to inihibit a2 receptors) and higher carb afterwards for a day or so. Rinse and repeat. Similar to UD but without the supercompensation and brutality lol. My thought is, since you're not low-carbing as long as in UD, reversing the metabolic slowdown should not take as long.

I'm guessing Justin's experience is vaguely similar to EOD.

Also see the EOD thread for more examples and ideas.
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  #16  
Unread 01-07-2013, 07:12 PM
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youngbloodz youngbloodz is offline
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If this a lean-BULK, how is he going to gain any weight with a PSMF on off-days. Maybe I'm missing something, but that makes no sense.

If I were you, I would start off with a 20% deficit on off-days and 20% surplus on workout days. Although this will be more of a re-composition program, it will give you a good chance to accurately figure out where your maintenance is and to see how your body reacts to it. This is a problem many people seem to have, as they get excited to start gaining after a cut and end up where they were before because they didn't truly understand how many kcals they need. It also seems from anecdotal information many people can progress quite nicely on this setup anyways. If you feel like you are spinning your wheels after 4-6 weeks and want to gain weight faster, its really easy to add kcals in from there.

Also, I'm pretty sure 10% is low enough to consider stubborn fat. Lyle gives 10% as a reference point in his book and Martin talks about 10% as a starting point to think about stubborn fat here:
http://www.leangains.com/2010/06/int...born-body.html
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  #17  
Unread 01-07-2013, 08:38 PM
mahalin mahalin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by youngbloodz View Post
If this a lean-BULK, how is he going to gain any weight with a PSMF on off-days. Maybe I'm missing something, but that makes no sense.

If I were you, I would start off with a 20% deficit on off-days and 20% surplus on workout days. Although this will be more of a re-composition program, it will give you a good chance to accurately figure out where your maintenance is and to see how your body reacts to it. This is a problem many people seem to have, as they get excited to start gaining after a cut and end up where they were before because they didn't truly understand how many kcals they need. It also seems from anecdotal information many people can progress quite nicely on this setup anyways. If you feel like you are spinning your wheels after 4-6 weeks and want to gain weight faster, its really easy to add kcals in from there.

Also, I'm pretty sure 10% is low enough to consider stubborn fat. Lyle gives 10% as a reference point in his book and Martin talks about 10% as a starting point to think about stubborn fat here:
http://www.leangains.com/2010/06/int...born-body.html
The primary goal of the low calorie/LC day is fat mobilization/oxidation and maintaining LBM. The primary goal of the high calorie/HC day is stimulating muscle growth. You make a good point, PSMF could be too drastic of a cut, YMMV. It's somewhat of a trade-off. The idea behind PSMF is maximizing fat loss in the shortest time, the downside is the body will fight back harder and faster with metabolic slowdown;hence its appropriateness in an EOD setup. In Lyle's post below, I'm guessing he's around 160 lbs/15% BF (got stats from bodyopus) which means his deficit is more than 20% where maintenance calories are around 12/14-16, so he's running at least a 40% deficit. Ofc, the gold standard is UD

From EOD thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd
realize that I wasn't deliberately testing this formally, it was just something that evolved over time (this was all occurring as I was looking deeply into leptin, man that was a great summer but I digress)

so I had been refeeding however often and found data showing tht 5 hours of carb overfeeding can upregulate leptin and i was lifting 3X/week in the evening and I was getting leaner and my refeeds were becoming more frequent anyhow and I ended up with a scheme that looked like this

every mornin: 1 hour of low intensity cardio (after caffeine yohimbe), walking on the treadmill.

weights 3X/week: sadly I don't have details of what I was doing, probably full bodyish, low volume I would guess. might have been an upper/lower split. I honestly don't know

calories were set at a default of 8 cal/lb (my activity outside of training was sitting in front of the computer so my maintenance was low) divided across 4 daily meals

on full diet days (tue/thu/sat/sun), I'd eat 8 cal/lb and do my cardio and abuse a lot of ephedrine

on weights days, I'd do my morning cardio and eat my first two diet meals

one hour prior to weights, I'd have some carbs/protein
from after weights to bedtime I'd eat a ton of carbs. lots of bread, milk, usually throw in a container of rainbow sherbet. I didn't count calories, I kept fat very low and just ate a lot of carbs

I kept getting leaner and fuller. and then I forgot about it completely and went on to other things.

now all the cool kids wanna call it IF'ing and modified IF'ing but I WAS THERE FIRST.

or something
BTW, nice results from UD!

Last edited by mahalin : 01-07-2013 at 09:02 PM.
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  #18  
Unread 01-07-2013, 09:08 PM
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AmbassadorW0lfe AmbassadorW0lfe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by youngbloodz View Post
If this a lean-BULK, how is he going to gain any weight with a PSMF on off-days. Maybe I'm missing something, but that makes no sense.

If I were you, I would start off with a 20% deficit on off-days and 20% surplus on workout days. Although this will be more of a re-composition program...

http://www.leangains.com/2010/06/int...born-body.html
+20/-20 is a very fast way of getting absolutely nowhere. I don't care what you call it or who is coaching you (short of you taking calorie partitioning drugs).

Discussing this type of "recomp" program on this forum is like hearing nails on a black board for members who know their stuff. Considering that OP is concerned about fat-regain, it would work well to see if the OP can increase volume and intensity on the previously discussed EOD set-up instead and add calories(carbs) as necessary on work-out days. Maybe include some degree of active cardio recovery as discussed on the mainsite about cardio and mass gains. Yohimbine-fasted cardio (and other alpha-2 antagonism strategies) fits in depending on the overall set-up but is still far more important for women trying to lean-up and generate slight increases to strength/mass.

Either way, both of you are missing the point. Men don't have to worry about SFS strategies quite as much as women do and this is discussed very extensively in the SFS book. Further, the EOD refeeds to do far more than just partition fuel to muscle cells.

Pop-quiz: why is leptin management important for the super-lean hoping to stay super-lean?

Perhaps the better question is, in two pages of the back and forth of this thread, why are the only two authors discussing leptin lyle and me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahalin View Post
@OP
[*]Ambassador's humble suggestion:
Yeah, I'm not that humble. Only about the plethora of stuff I know I know nothing about.
__________________
...Watch your actions, for they become habits. Watch your habits, for they become character. Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.

Last edited by AmbassadorW0lfe : 01-07-2013 at 09:11 PM.
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  #19  
Unread 01-07-2013, 09:23 PM
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youngbloodz youngbloodz is offline
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Thanks, UD2 kicked my butt but it was definitely worth it. Unfortunately, I hurt my shoulder and gained some fat back. Trying an EOD cut right now that I'm about to start logging.

It seems to me that Lyle's method from that thread is tough to replicate because he had no idea how many kcals he was eating on workout days. The one confounding factor is that your muscles are still growing on your off day. If you PSMF or even have too large of a deficit (I'm guessing somewhere over 700 deficit) aren't you severely limiting how long long of a time your body has to grow.

A possible solution might be having a ~1,000 calorie surplus each week for 3 weeks. This could easily be accomplished by working out 4x per week with a 500 calories surplus and having a -333 deficit on the 3 off days. After those 3 weeks are up, you should have theoretically gained between 1- 1.5 lbs in body weight. Then, for 1 week (or less if you want to PSMF for like 3-4 days) just do a pretty moderate diet with a 3,500 calorie deficit and you should theoretically lose any fat you gained, if not more.

This setup allows people to be pretty flexible with their diet for 3/4 of the time, allows them to progress pretty systematically during the 3 weeks of surplus, takes advantage of off day growth, and maintain their level of leanness.

I have yet to try UD2 mass, but this would allow for more leeway on what you can eat and how you train for a particular day.
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  #20  
Unread 01-07-2013, 10:30 PM
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youngbloodz youngbloodz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmbassadorW0lfe View Post
Considering that OP is concerned about fat-regain, it would work well to see if the OP can increase volume and intensity on the previously discussed EOD set-up instead and add calories(carbs) as necessary on work-out days.
This is a lean BULK. How is anyone going to gain weight on a "slight caloric surplus/carb-up on lifting days and a PSMF/relatively large caloric deficit on off days"

If the average male has a maintenance of 2,500. Does a PSMF at 1,500 for 3 days out of a week, that is a deficit of ~3,000. If on the other 4 days he has his workouts and eats 2,800 to get a slight surplus of 300. At the end of the week he still is down -1,800. That has nothing to do with leptin, that is calories in calories out. Perfectly setup program if you are trying to do a slower cut, but he is doing a lean BULK.

You're going to have to increase carbs a ton on workout days to get back to maintaining weight. If that happens what are you doing? More or less a recomp program, except for now its +30% on workout days and -40% on off days.

Last edited by youngbloodz : 01-07-2013 at 10:34 PM.
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