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  #11  
Unread 03-09-2018, 07:48 AM
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zLeeKo zLeeKo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimike View Post
Interesting you and Lyle say this. I find the OHP the most annoying lifts I do.

Question.

When performing upright rows are you still trying to keep your elbow to wrist sections loose? Y'know like in one arm dumbell rows where you should focus on lifting the elbow rather than lifting your hand up to ensure you do use too much biceps considering rows are back movements.

Secondly, if I was to incorporate lat raises and upright rows are upright rows a 'nothing' accessory movement like say a bicep curl or lat raise is? In the way that it'll have zero effect on recovery. Thanks.
Yes and yes.
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  #12  
Unread 03-09-2018, 09:10 AM
RC2018 RC2018 is offline
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Originally Posted by LightCrow View Post
Do whatever you're going to do regardless of our advices. Asked and answered already in this thread.
I feel my initial question is still unanswered: I am going to continue to OHP and am wondering if doing side raises and face pulls the day after I OHP will interfere with recovery/growth of the shoulders due to training to same muscles on back to back days, or if this is not an issue because the OHP does not really involve the side/rear delts.

The other answers basically just said not to even worry about doing OHP for shoulder growth. I appreciate that advice, but enjoy the movement and want to continue to train it regardless.

Last edited by RC2018 : 03-09-2018 at 09:12 AM. Reason: Correction
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  #13  
Unread 03-09-2018, 09:22 AM
AlphaBettor AlphaBettor is offline
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Overhead press and lateral raise are both basically abduction moves although this depends on your form in the overhead press. The relative internal rotation of a lateral raise does shift the emphasis but there is a lot of overlap (difference in torso position can also factor in.)

Overhead press will hit the anterior head the hardest but also will involve quite a bit of lateral head (and also the tie-in between the two that is less clearly defined). Lateral raise will target the lateral head but still largely involve the anterior head. Posterior head also factors in, but less so (especially in the case of overhead press.)

It's a matter of degrees, and you're going to end up with differences of opinion on how to account for all of this overlap, as well as that from compound chest and back exercises.

What you're doing now is basically 6x/week frequency. It seems as this is not what you're looking to do; there is some interesting research on high frequency training like this with sometimes impressive results. That said, can your shoulders even handle it in the first place? If you're going to try it then be very cautious, and back off the shoulder work if (when) shoulder discomfort starts setting in.
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  #14  
Unread 03-09-2018, 09:36 AM
LightCrow LightCrow is offline
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Originally Posted by RC2018 View Post
I feel my initial question is still unanswered: I am going to continue to OHP and am wondering if doing side raises and face pulls the day after I OHP will interfere with recovery/growth of the shoulders due to training to same muscles on back to back days, or if this is not an issue because the OHP does not really involve the side/rear delts.

The other answers basically just said not to even worry about doing OHP for shoulder growth. I appreciate that advice, but enjoy the movement and want to continue to train it regardless.
Then do them and quit looking for external validation. The recovery question was already answered. Or were you hoping for a different answer from someone else?
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  #15  
Unread 03-09-2018, 02:15 PM
RC2018 RC2018 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaBettor View Post
Overhead press and lateral raise are both basically abduction moves although this depends on your form in the overhead press. The relative internal rotation of a lateral raise does shift the emphasis but there is a lot of overlap (difference in torso position can also factor in.)

Overhead press will hit the anterior head the hardest but also will involve quite a bit of lateral head (and also the tie-in between the two that is less clearly defined). Lateral raise will target the lateral head but still largely involve the anterior head. Posterior head also factors in, but less so (especially in the case of overhead press.)

It's a matter of degrees, and you're going to end up with differences of opinion on how to account for all of this overlap, as well as that from compound chest and back exercises.

What you're doing now is basically 6x/week frequency. It seems as this is not what you're looking to do; there is some interesting research on high frequency training like this with sometimes impressive results. That said, can your shoulders even handle it in the first place? If you're going to try it then be very cautious, and back off the shoulder work if (when) shoulder discomfort starts setting in.
Alphabettor, thanks for the very informative response. This is the kind of info I was looking for.

I am definitely not wanting be doing 6x/week frequency. This is very helpful.
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  #16  
Unread 03-09-2018, 02:19 PM
lylemcdonald lylemcdonald is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimike View Post
Interesting you and Lyle say this. I find the OHP the most annoying lifts I do.

Question.

When performing upright rows are you still trying to keep your elbow to wrist sections loose? Y'know like in one arm dumbell rows where you should focus on lifting the elbow rather than lifting your hand up to ensure you do use too much biceps considering rows are back movements.

Secondly, if I was to incorporate lat raises and upright rows are upright rows a 'nothing' accessory movement like say a bicep curl or lat raise is? In the way that it'll have zero effect on recovery. Thanks.
https://bodyrecomposition.com/traini...-safe-qa.html/
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  #17  
Unread 03-12-2018, 06:13 AM
jimike jimike is offline
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Thanks Lyle,

I do search your posts often as I'm always super surprised the sheer range of topics you've covered over the years. I've been rereading your goal vs process orientated training again recently. Great source of content your articles.
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  #18  
Unread 03-14-2018, 09:19 PM
RC2018 RC2018 is offline
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Talking Question About Shoulder Volume

I have been doing the following for the shoulders 3x/week as part of my full body routine:

Workout A: OHP 4x8, Side Laterals 4x12

Workout B: Dumbbell OHP 4x8, Barbell Upright Row 4x12

Is this too much for the shoulders?

My reasoning was that presses mainly hit anterior delts and laterals/upright rows mainly hit the side delts, so they should each be given equal volume (However, I do understand there is some overlap here as Alphabettor pointed out and training side delts the day after OHP would not be the smartest)

Do any of you guys treat side delts as their own bodypart and give them the same level of volume as say back or chest for example? I really want to focus on builidng the shoulders (could you tell? ), especially side delts so am curious about the optimal way to program for the most overall shoulder growth.

Thanks again for all of the advice.
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  #19  
Unread 03-15-2018, 03:36 AM
PyromanXP PyromanXP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcdonald View Post
This
So why recommending OHP + lat raises on the shoulder specialization ? :/
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  #20  
Unread 03-15-2018, 08:30 AM
LightCrow LightCrow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PyromanXP View Post
So why recommending OHP + lat raises on the shoulder specialization ? :/
In the context of specialization chest gets a lower volume, so less pressing, so doing an OHP would be beneficial for loading on the 5x5 part. Only so much loading you're going to be able to do for that strength focus on upright rows and you would have major form breakdown if you tried with laterals. Lyle also didn't say it has to be a barbell OHP for specialization, he has consistently said a good machine OH press is superior.
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