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  #1  
Unread 03-19-2018, 09:28 AM
jimike jimike is offline
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Default Questions regarding low skill level movements that maximize an 'aesthetic' physique

Hi all,

I'm a long-term lifter and I've got reasonably strong for an average gym random in the compound lifts (1RM squat was 2xbodyweight a couple months ago)

Anyway, I'm somewhat losing the will to live trying to get acceptable form in the squat and deadlift in particular. I mean it can sometimes be 'meh' but other times I'm losing a lot of power via my chest caving, I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post.ty knee positioning, slightly losing balance forward etc. I know all these could be fixed with enough effort (which I have definitely expended) but I've genuinely lost the will to care about them any more. I've an ingrained motor pattern in these lifts via teaching myself how to do them of almost ten years. so they are very resistant to change, or STAYING changed. With that in mind:


How could I stop doing these high skill lifts (squat and deadlift) up while still getting the benefits these lifts give you? What would I need to add to the obvious subsitutes?


I HAVE really tried to improve my form. I've paid for coaching, spent months working on technique with decent knowledgeable powerlifting coaches online, watched all the youtubes, highlighted and reread or watced Starting Strength books and videos but to no avail.

I've seen some coaches sort movements into different functions such as:
Hip hinge
Squat-like movement

Is it just a point of taking out the deadlift out of the hip hinge and replacing it with a hip thrust but aren't you still missing a lot out? How could I account for all that missing stuff or do I even have to?


Would a physique that was built via these low-skill substitutes (eg. hip thrust and leg press) look comparatively different to one that had barbell deadlift and squats?

Similarly is the squat a straight swap to a leg press? I've read Lyle's article on squats vs leg press so I presume it's kinda fine but am I missing much out in the transfer.

I just really want the limiting factor with the amount of weight I can move in the gym generally be my effort rather than getting screwed by the skill component of the lifts (I'm looking at you here squat). Thanks all.
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  #2  
Unread 03-19-2018, 10:23 AM
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zLeeKo zLeeKo is offline
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No one has to do bench/squat/deadlift/OHP, except PL's and OL's.

And what benefits squats give you, that leg press doesn't? I can argue that leg press is better choice than squats for majority of people (for hypertrophy/bodybuilding). Heck, I can even argue that you can build good set of quads with leg extensions only.
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Unread 03-19-2018, 10:42 AM
jimike jimike is offline
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Well for leg size probably leg press in similar to squats as per Lyle's article (he said it may even be better if you're not built to squat and allows you to dodge the lower back fatigue that can limit squat performance).

But squats don't only hit the legs though lots of muscle work during a squat, abs keep you stable.

My question is are all these other muscles it hits important from a physique standpoint? Would the squat be approximately copied by having some legs press and some lunges and hamstring curls for example or would that still be a poor clone? Would I need to add in lots of other stuff to make up the 'loss' from not squatting with some ab work, back extensions, etc.

I suppose I've phrased the question wrong? I should ask what is the best routine from a bodybuilding perspective that doesn't use high skill movements?

Yeah, I'm just particularly sick of deadlifting and squatting recently and trying to find a way to justify to myself getting rid of them lol. :-)

Last edited by jimike : 03-19-2018 at 10:45 AM.
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Unread 03-19-2018, 10:54 AM
LightCrow LightCrow is offline
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If your goal is aesthetics then you're going to be doing leg curls, abs, etc. even if you are squatting. Abs aren't getting hypertrophy stimulus from whatever they do to stabilize you with squats, you still need to train them with a weighted movement.

If you want aesthetics do the GBR and change out squats and deadlifts for lifts *you enjoy* and will stick to. It covers everything else for aesthetics if you squat or don't.
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Unread 03-19-2018, 10:57 AM
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zLeeKo zLeeKo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimike View Post
I should ask what is the best routine from a bodybuilding perspective that doesn't use high skill movements?
Best routine includes exercises that are:

1. Safe
2. Let you target muscles and fit your mechanics
3. Allow you to progress over time

Most everything else is macho myopia.
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Unread 03-19-2018, 05:05 PM
AlphaBettor AlphaBettor is offline
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Use leg press and RDL as your main quad and hamstring moves.

I've done the following leg workout (inspired by GBR) many times:

Leg press
RDL
Split squat or leg extension
Leg curl
Standing calves
Seated calves
A bit of core

Works the legs effectively and you can get out of the gym without feeling like you're going to die.

More recently I've been doing more traditional bodybuilding style of workouts again. So to use one example, a 3 way split, with one day devoted to legs. A workout might go something like:

Leg press
Split squat
Leg extension
Back extension*
Leg curl
Standing calves
Seated calves

*Sometimes I like training all exercises of a muscle group together. I've also been somewhat posterior chain dominant since pretty much forever, so I personally don't worry about working hamstrings after being finished with quads in at least some cycles. However, what I found is that after doing 3(!) exercises for quads, RDL suffers too much. I actually kept with it for a while but never really got comfortable with what I perceived as a bit of instability at the knee, so I use back extensions here now instead. I perform them with the pad low enough so that hams/glutes get worked dynamically. See Lyle's article on back extension technique is this is not clear.

I still really like RDL + leg curl combo for hamstrings. But the above might be something to consider if even RDLs are out of the question for whatever reason.
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Unread 03-19-2018, 05:15 PM
AlphaBettor AlphaBettor is offline
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Quote:
Similarly is the squat a straight swap to a leg press? I've read Lyle's article on squats vs leg press so I presume it's kinda fine but am I missing much out in the transfer.
Figure a squat works lower back pretty hard and upper body to some degree. You're going to want to do it fresh, and it's more demanding on recovery. There's a greater degree of hip extension compared to most versions of leg press.

They're both compound quad movements though. They will both heavily recruit glutes and adductors.

So for aesthetic purposes, there's a lot of carryover, but it's still important to know where they differ.
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Unread 03-19-2018, 05:24 PM
AlphaBettor AlphaBettor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimike View Post
Well for leg size probably leg press in similar to squats as per Lyle's article (he said it may even be better if you're not built to squat and allows you to dodge the lower back fatigue that can limit squat performance).

But squats don't only hit the legs though lots of muscle work during a squat, abs keep you stable.

My question is are all these other muscles it hits important from a physique standpoint? Would the squat be approximately copied by having some legs press and some lunges and hamstring curls for example or would that still be a poor clone? Would I need to add in lots of other stuff to make up the 'loss' from not squatting with some ab work, back extensions, etc.

I suppose I've phrased the question wrong? I should ask what is the best routine from a bodybuilding perspective that doesn't use high skill movements?

Yeah, I'm just particularly sick of deadlifting and squatting recently and trying to find a way to justify to myself getting rid of them lol. :-)
First, do you consider an RDL to be a high skill movement? I don't, but some people struggle learning a hip hinge. I just think it's easier to learn than a conventional deadlift because there's less going on, you're not pulling from the floor, and it's a more fluid type of movement instead of moving the weight at all costs.

As a general rule, the less 'compoundish' your exercises, the more you're going to have to make up for the loss in carryover with assistance work. This is not necessarily a bad thing mind you. I actually think it's a good thing for physique purposes in a lot of cases.

Also get out of the mindset of 'best routine'. There is no best routine. Programming often comes down to goals, weaknesses, past training history, etc. And people vary in their response to different types of training.
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