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  #1  
Unread 03-18-2008, 09:22 AM
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menphisdaemon menphisdaemon is offline
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Arrow Protein intake for mass gain

Hi Mr. Mc Donald.
First of all let me congratulate with you for all your work.
I've a simple question ( not really) for you:
I put beforehand that I haven't read the protein book yet because I can't buy it now. In all my searches I never found a maximum protein intake over which kidneys and liver will suffer any form of desease (I've plenty of studies confirming that). But is there a threshold that we can sustain all life long (intended as anabolic threshold)? I conjecture that 2,2 g/pro/die*kg is a good one. I really wanna be as anabolic as possible, but my health is the first concern.
I make this ridiculous silly question because I' m interested in testing a keto diet (I mean a relly low carb diet, not necessarily in deep ketosis) for weight gain and, assuming that my maintenance is around 3000 Kcal/die, I would have to raise protein intake far over 2,2 g/kg even using a cyclical approach with low calories from monday to friday and with very high calories in the week end.
Thank you for your kind reply and forgive my english.
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  #2  
Unread 03-18-2008, 01:54 PM
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lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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there is exactly zero evidence that high protein intakes are damaging to either organ and 2.2 g/kg is awfully conservative

3 g/kg is more than safe based on teh existing body of knowledge and simply put, if higher protein intakes than that were a problem, bodybuilders would be dropping dead right and left
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  #3  
Unread 03-18-2008, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
there is exactly zero evidence that high protein intakes are damaging to either organ
This was my convincement. Your word for me it's like Bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
3 g/kg is more than safe based on teh existing body of knowledge and simply put
3 g/Kg was the threshold indicated on a study on "Sport and Medicine" (italian journal) by Dr. M.Negro. The study is called "La verità sulle proteine" (The truth about protein)

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Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
if higher protein intakes than that were a problem, bodybuilders would be dropping dead right and left
Verified that it is not dangerous you said that 2,2 g/Kg is awfully conservative. I read (Mauro Di Pasquale, "Amino acids and protein for the athlete,the anabolic limit") that over 2,8 g/kg there is not further anabolic stimulus...so you do not agree with him..

Last but not least I percieve by intuition (though you don't exclude it in your books) that you don't suggest to use a ketogenic diet for weight gain because, if 2,2 is merely conservative, an higher intake will cause too much GNG.
Maybe only containing proteins intake during the week and then having a massive refeed.

Thank you for your time, having replies from you it's fantastic. I hope to buy soon "The protein book".

Menphisdaemon, Italy.
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  #4  
Unread 03-18-2008, 05:59 PM
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I do not think keto diets are optimal for mass gains for a bunch of reasons that I'm not going to bother detailing here.

my choice of protein recommendations in the protein book comes from a piece by tipton/wolf from a year or two ago. their basic argument, which I agree with is that there may be further benefits of higher protein intake (that do not show up in research) and, in that there is no real danger with that high of a protein intake, there's no reason NOT to eat that much

basically, doesn't hurt, might help, so go for it.

or read this
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  #5  
Unread 03-19-2008, 05:39 AM
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menphisdaemon menphisdaemon is offline
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I greedily read the entire article: I didn't read it before so, thanx a lot!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
the impact of anabolic steroids on protein requirements is almost a complete unknown although empirically most who would argue that a natural bodybuilder only needs 1 g/lb daily would also argue that someone using anabolic steroids needs about double that to maximize the effects of the drugs.
Clear. Since I'm a drug-free athlete I'm interested in requirements for a natural (onestly I'm interested in everythig just for wisdom) that you stated in 3.3 g/kg. I read (really don't remind where) that 1.8 g/Kg* die is enough to have a positive nitrogen balance (study on strenght-athlete training twice a day), so I deduce that you said it more to raise calories than to have a plastic function..am I wrong?

Another concern is the capacity of protein absorption by the gastrointestinal tract that should be (I can't say "is", I study Laws)of 1.3 to 10 g/h ( Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006 Apr;16(2):129-52. Links
A review of issues of dietary protein intake in humans.Bilsborough S, Mann N. B Personal Pty Ltd., Melbourne, Victoria 3001, Australia. )that leads me to an hypothetical maximum protein daily intake of 240 grams..wrong another time?

Assuming that I'm wrong should I wave protein intake from 2,2 to 3,3 g/kg*die? How long do you suggest sholud be long bulkin periods for weight gain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
If you’re Jeff Lewis, I imagine your protein requirements are basically “all of it” or perhaps “a cow” per day.
I love your irony and sarcasm.

Forgive all these questions, I won't steal your time..
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  #6  
Unread 03-19-2008, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by menphisdaemon View Post
Clear. Since I'm a drug-free athlete I'm interested in requirements for a natural (onestly I'm interested in everythig just for wisdom) that you stated in 3.3 g/kg. I read (really don't remind where) that 1.8 g/Kg* die is enough to have a positive nitrogen balance (study on strenght-athlete training twice a day), so I deduce that you said it more to raise calories than to have a plastic function..am I wrong?
sorry, don't know what you're asking me.

Quote:
Another concern is the capacity of protein absorption by the gastrointestinal tract that should be (I can't say "is", I study Laws)of 1.3 to 10 g/h ( Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006 Apr;16(2):129-52. Links
A review of issues of dietary protein intake in humans.Bilsborough S, Mann N. B Personal Pty Ltd., Melbourne, Victoria 3001, Australia. )that leads me to an hypothetical maximum protein daily intake of 240 grams..wrong another time?
I cover bilsborough's paper in detail in the book, and his paper fails the reailty check. Bodybuidlers have long eaten far more than his theoretical maximum so there's clearly a disconnect. What he feailed to take into account is that, with chronic consumption of any given nutrient, the body increases teh rate of absorption. Bsaically his data is crap.

Quote:
Assuming that I'm wrong should I wave protein intake from 2,2 to 3,3 g/kg*die? How long do you suggest sholud be long bulkin periods for weight gain?
wrong thread
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  #7  
Unread 03-19-2008, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
sorry, don't know what you're asking me.
I was saying that there is no catabolism with an adequate calories intake and at least 1,8 g/pro/die*Kg but maybe I misunderstood..Ok, never mind.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
What he feailed to take into account is that, with chronic consumption of any given nutrient, the body increases teh rate of absorption. Bsaically his data is crap.
So there is an overall adaptation as I thought. I'll read it in the book.



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wrong thread
Sorry. Where can I make this question?
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  #8  
Unread 03-19-2008, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by menphisdaemon View Post
I was saying that there is no catabolism with an adequate calories intake and at least 1,8 g/pro/die*Kg but maybe I misunderstood..Ok, never mind.
after protein requirements have been met, increasing energy intake has a more positive effect on nitrogen retention. if that answers your question

the basic point (as per the elitefts article) is that there may be small additionall benefits of more protein (not measured or even measurable in short-term studies) and that consuming more than 1.8 g/kg won't hurt in any case. the biggest disadvantage will be if it prevents folks from eating enough other calories (from carbs/fat)

Quote:
Sorry. Where can I make this question?
general diet questions
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  #9  
Unread 03-19-2008, 11:24 AM
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menphisdaemon menphisdaemon is offline
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No more questions. Thanks a lot. I'll open a new thread for the previous question.
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