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  #1  
Unread 10-04-2018, 04:07 AM
PyromanXP PyromanXP is offline
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Default Natural limits

Hi everyone, I was wondering what could be achieved naturally those days and I decided to look at people showing big muscles before 1938 (because from wikipedia "Clinical trials on humans, involving either oral doses of methyltestosterone or injections of testosterone propionate, began as early as 1937."

So I can easily think that every bodybuilding champions after 1938-40 are not natural (maybe I am going hasty but with today youtubers / instagramers & so on, I feel cheated on what can be truly achieved).

I picked this guy as an example : Ronald Walker who performed at the olympics of 1936.

From this https://www.davidgentle.com/ironindex/walker.htm he pressed (overhead) 110kg at 88.5kg bw (the bw was not mentionned on wikipedia just the category : 82.5kg+

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W81v1EVAovU
From this video you can see how he looked and I was wondering as he was probably the elite of his time, but nutrition & training methods have evolved since then, do you think it is possible for most today people to reach his shoulders & triceps muscle mass naturally ?
Are people with bigger shoulders & triceps obviously on gear ?
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  #2  
Unread 10-04-2018, 07:08 AM
Little_Joe77's Avatar
Little_Joe77 Little_Joe77 is offline
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Here are some good reads on the subject.

https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle...otential.html/

https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle...ain-math.html/

http://www.weightrainer.net/bodycalc.html
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  #3  
Unread Yesterday, 08:00 AM
AlphaBettor AlphaBettor is offline
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That he was an Olympian and record holder should tell you that he wasn't just some average guy. Most naturals don't achieve that degree of dense muscularity, no matter how hard they try.

There are a ton of fake natties on youtube/instagram/etc. General rule: if you have to ask, and they're not regularly drug tested, they're not natural. If they're drug tested, they might be natural (there are always loopholes and ways to beat tests but at least it's something.)

The honor system fails spectacularly here. "Well he said he is natural so it must be true." - not an exact quote but that's what a lot of people seem to believe.

Figure every bodybuilding champion from like the late 50s and certainly from the 60s on are not natural. Before then it's a little more complicated. Casey Butt has an article that talks about exactly this but I've also seen arguments that some of the earlier drug use was not documented and may have been lost to history. Others can sort that one out.

http://weightrainer.blogspot.com/200...ybuilding.html

Last edited by AlphaBettor : Yesterday at 08:07 AM.
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  #4  
Unread Yesterday, 08:03 AM
w1cked w1cked is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaBettor View Post
That he was an Olympian and record holder should tell you that he wasn't just some average guy. Most naturals don't achieve that degree of dense muscularity, no matter how hard they try.

There are a ton of fake natties on youtube/instagram/etc. General rule: if you have to ask, and they're not regularly drug tested, they're not natural. If they're drug tested, they might be natural (there are always loopholes and ways to beat tests but at least it's something.)

The honor system fails spectacularly here. "Well he said he is natural so it must be true." - not an exact quote but that's what a lot of people seem to believe.

Figure every bodybuilding champion from like the late 50s and certainly from the 60s on are not natural. Before then it's a little more complicated. Casey Butt has an article that talks about exactly this but I've also seen convincing arguments that maybe some of the earlier drug use was not documented and may have been lost to history.
Eric has a good article on this. Although there were drugs earlier on I dont think any bodybuilder used em till early 50s honestly. Also I'll second your overall opinion on this natural limits stuff. Chances are, if you're browsing an online forum, your own limit is much lower than any champion from even 100 years ago despite having more nutrition/training knowledge. Hence is really an exercise in futility, you'll end up disappointed if your gauge is eugene sandow or Clancy ross etc
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  #5  
Unread Yesterday, 08:56 AM
lylemcdonald lylemcdonald is offline
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Look at when the first steroid was invented.

If you don't think athetees were on them from day 2, you're delusional

Eric's article is hilarious to me, he is willing to rely on the claimed weight and height of guys who are known to have lied through their damn teeth about it. Even then he can't find more than like 8 people who supposedly exceed the FFMI cap.

somewhere he cited a paper at me that was recent. High levcels athletes who all SAID they were clean (includign some Olympians). Sure, Eric, sure.

If you can count the number of exceptions by name, that's all they are and statistically 99.9% of people won't get there much less past it.

I did an analysis of the current top bodybuilding champions a few years ago. Out of 15, maybe 3 exceeded the cap. These are the top 0.1% of the sport and most still can't get there.

Cnoclusion: neither can you.
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  #6  
Unread Yesterday, 09:15 AM
w1cked w1cked is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcdonald View Post
Look at when the first steroid was invented.

If you don't think athetees were on them from day 2, you're delusional

Eric's article is hilarious to me, he is willing to rely on the claimed weight and height of guys who are known to have lied through their damn teeth about it. Even then he can't find more than like 8 people who supposedly exceed the FFMI cap.

somewhere he cited a paper at me that was recent. High levcels athletes who all SAID they were clean (includign some Olympians). Sure, Eric, sure.

If you can count the number of exceptions by name, that's all they are and statistically 99.9% of people won't get there much less past it.

I did an analysis of the current top bodybuilding champions a few years ago. Out of 15, maybe 3 exceeded the cap. These are the top 0.1% of the sport and most still can't get there.

Cnoclusion: neither can you.
What's the cutoff here? Injectable test in the late 30s/40s, dbol in the 50s. I'm thinking early 50s?

Also theres some weird disconnect here. Alberto Nunez is like 155 to 160 on stage. Doug Miller same height like 190. Yet the 3dmj guys continue to believe/push the latter guy is natural..why?
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  #7  
Unread Yesterday, 10:27 AM
blueromaleos blueromaleos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w1cked View Post
What's the cutoff here? Injectable test in the late 30s/40s, dbol in the 50s. I'm thinking early 50s?

Also theres some weird disconnect here. Alberto Nunez is like 155 to 160 on stage. Doug Miller same height like 190. Yet the 3dmj guys continue to believe/push the latter guy is natural..why?
Injectible testosterone became officially available in the 1940s with several esters of it coming available next decade, but the anabolic and masculinizing properties of certain animal extracts were known of for quite a while before then.

Insulin was first extracted in the 1920s, I wonder how long that has been in use.
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  #8  
Unread Yesterday, 10:56 AM
lylemcdonald lylemcdonald is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w1cked View Post
What's the cutoff here? Injectable test in the late 30s/40s, dbol in the 50s. I'm thinking early 50s?

Also theres some weird disconnect here. Alberto Nunez is like 155 to 160 on stage. Doug Miller same height like 190. Yet the 3dmj guys continue to believe/push the latter guy is natural..why?
Because they want to pander to the idiots in this industry and MAKE THEM BELIEVE it's possible. Great way to sell product I imagine.

and yet when you go to natural bodybiudling, shows the 165's are the biggest class.
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  #9  
Unread Yesterday, 10:58 AM
lylemcdonald lylemcdonald is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueromaleos View Post
Injectible testosterone became officially available in the 1940s with several esters of it coming available next decade, but the anabolic and masculinizing properties of certain animal extracts were known of for quite a while before then.

Insulin was first extracted in the 1920s, I wonder how long that has been in use.
I can more or less assure you insulin wasn't used then. It wouldn't have occurred to anybody IMO.

But everybody knew that tesotsterone was good. Go to early 20th and guys were getting orchic injections, bull testicles injected into theirs. Old guys. Didnt' work but everybody knew that if you geld an animal, it doesn't grow.

Geld a man and it doesn't either.

As soon as testosterone would have become available on any levels, guys would have been using IMO.

Even if they didn't, early strongmen ALL lied about their size and height and weights. And yet Helms is happy to use them as exceptions.

Again, take it at face value. they did pass the cap.

When you can only name 6 guys who did, it still doesn't matter.
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