BodyRecomposition Support Forums  

Go Back   BodyRecomposition Support Forums > General information > General training questions
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Unread 03-26-2018, 07:12 AM
gymhustle10 gymhustle10 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 2
Default Brad Schoenfeld and Optimal Sets for Hypertrophy

Hi Lyle,

I've read Brad's MAX muscle plan and his Muscular Hypertrophy textbook. I've also looked at a lot of his research and youtube interviews.

From looking at his routines and the way he discusses volume it seems as if he is a fan of overall high volume for hypertrophy. In one of his latest interviews I watched he even suggests (although research has not yet concluded this) that somewhere between 10 and 20 sets per week per muscle may be optimal. Even looking at his routines in his books, they are periodized but they are very high in volume. My question is, how the heck do you fit in the upper range (15-20) sets a week per muscle in a 4-5 day routine ? How would you structure that? I'd assume 5 because the volume in 4 days would be way too much, and going to the gym 6 days is overkill IMO.

I can think of programs like Layne Norton's PHAT that reach this volume, but it still seems like a lot. In Brads books volume is periodized by going from 3 days a week, to 4, to 6 days a week. His 6 day is Chest/back, Legs, Shoulders/Arms, rest and repeat. So, for the following week Chest/back is hit the day after shoulder/arms.. That seems like not only a ton of volume but also asking for injury ! I'm just wondering your thoughts on this research, and how would you set up a routine in 5 days based on these guidelines/recommendations.

I don't like the way he sets up some of his routines, i.e one mesocycle your Squating, Benching, AND deadlifting 3 sets of 4-5 reps, which is nuts. And then for a few weeks you skip a few of these lifts, to come back to them a few weeks later. It seems weird.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Unread 03-26-2018, 08:40 AM
lylemcdonald lylemcdonald is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,162
Default

Ok, let's math this out

My GBR is about 7-8 sets per muscle group twice per week. That's 15-16 sets per week. 10 sets/week per muscle group is trivial, 5 sets twice per week? C'mon.

20 gets more problematic since the workoiuts get long. In something I listened to yesterday, he is including compound work as arm work

So 10 sets of compoun pull work = 10 sets of biceps work. I don't know if I agree with that at face value but meh

Even on an upper/lower it should not be that difficult.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Unread 03-26-2018, 08:41 AM
w1cked w1cked is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,890
Default

Not too hard. 3 days of 6 to 8 sets for a target muscle and a minimal 3 to 3 sets to maintain the others.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Unread 03-26-2018, 10:10 AM
LightCrow LightCrow is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,023
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcdonald View Post
20 gets more problematic since the workoiuts get long. In something I listened to yesterday, he is including compound work as arm work

So 10 sets of compoun pull work = 10 sets of biceps work. I don't know if I agree with that at face value but meh
Which for me goes to a question on the GBR I have had with some of the newer volume studies that are out and was never important enough to start a whole thread on.

By the book GBR is 2 sets for biceps & tris of 12-15. Would you change that at all for the baseline starting program these days?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Unread 03-26-2018, 10:13 AM
gymhustle10 gymhustle10 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcdonald View Post
Ok, let's math this out

My GBR is about 7-8 sets per muscle group twice per week. That's 15-16 sets per week. 10 sets/week per muscle group is trivial, 5 sets twice per week? C'mon.

20 gets more problematic since the workoiuts get long. In something I listened to yesterday, he is including compound work as arm work

So 10 sets of compoun pull work = 10 sets of biceps work. I don't know if I agree with that at face value but meh

Even on an upper/lower it should not be that difficult.
Yes, you're right. But, as you said in your spec. cycles thread, and as noticed from years of lifting that doing the GBR (or any balanced upper/lower routine) doing the upper end of those volumes becomes a LONG and taxing work out. Would it be more realistic to stretch it across 5 days of training where the first upper day gets worked at the lower end of the volume recommendations (3 sets instead of 4) and then to spread up the other upper day into 2 smaller sessions? i.e. Upper, Lower, Chest/back, lower, Delts/Arms, Off, Off OR Upper, Lower, Pull, Legs, Push, Off, Off?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Unread 03-26-2018, 10:37 AM
LightCrow LightCrow is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,023
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gymhustle10 View Post
Yes, you're right. But, as you said in your spec. cycles thread, and as noticed from years of lifting that doing the GBR (or any balanced upper/lower routine) doing the upper end of those volumes becomes a LONG and taxing work out. Would it be more realistic to stretch it across 5 days of training where the first upper day gets worked at the lower end of the volume recommendations (3 sets instead of 4) and then to spread up the other upper day into 2 smaller sessions? i.e. Upper, Lower, Chest/back, lower, Delts/Arms, Off, Off OR Upper, Lower, Pull, Legs, Push, Off, Off?
The problem with more upper days and trying to get volume higher becomes you're now working shoulders 3x a week. By the point in your career you might need 20 sets a week at the peak of your training cycle for optimal growth you should be at an advanced level so not even doing a GBR style workout any more and on to specialization cycles.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Unread 03-26-2018, 10:48 AM
PhysiologyIsPhun PhysiologyIsPhun is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 290
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightCrow View Post
By the book GBR is 2 sets for biceps & tris of 12-15. Would you change that at all for the baseline starting program these days?
Also curious on this. The bro inside me always felt 2 sets of high reps for bis/tris seemed low.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Unread 03-26-2018, 02:32 PM
zLeeKo's Avatar
zLeeKo zLeeKo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Posts: 773
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhysiologyIsPhun View Post
Also curious on this. The bro inside me always felt 2 sets of high reps for bis/tris seemed low.
Are your tris/bis growing while progressively overloading them?

If not, add a bit more volume, maybe set or two, three, whatever. It's simple as that.

I have a nice strategy for arms, I took it from a guy here, mrlakramondas IIRC.
__________________
"He never had the makings of a varsity athlete"

Last edited by zLeeKo : 03-26-2018 at 02:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Unread 03-26-2018, 02:51 PM
zLeeKo's Avatar
zLeeKo zLeeKo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Belgrade, Serbia
Posts: 773
Default

Ok, I forgot to write what that strategy is.

So, first of all, routine based SOLELY around the heavy compounds (i.e. SS and it's vairations) are often inadequate for optimal arm growth and many trainees (depending on mechanics) require direct arm work for growth. I'm one of them, since I have long, monkey arms.

When you're doing 8-10 sets of heavy compounds that involve bimers and trimers, adding another 10 sets of direct arm work is generally overkill. 2-3 sets is a good starting point IMO, some may require more, some less.

Gross generality: compound pushing movements tend to hit triceps harder than many compound pulling (depends on what you do) hit biceps.

About the "strategy":

Basically, one way is to do some extra arm training at home on the same days that you work upper body.

So, maybe do 4 sets each on bis and tris. Throw in a set or two of reverse curls/reverse wrist curls too (forearm development AND it helps to protect the elbows). Shouldn't take more than 15-20min.

Third (off) day (maybe): Just a couple of sets each. 20-25 reps. I do this rarely on off days, mostly because I'm lazy bastard.

That's about it. Give me your money.
__________________
"He never had the makings of a varsity athlete"

Last edited by zLeeKo : 03-26-2018 at 02:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Unread 03-26-2018, 06:08 PM
PhysiologyIsPhun PhysiologyIsPhun is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 290
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zLeeKo View Post
Ok, I forgot to write what that strategy is.

So, first of all, routine based SOLELY around the heavy compounds (i.e. SS and it's vairations) are often inadequate for optimal arm growth and many trainees (depending on mechanics) require direct arm work for growth. I'm one of them, since I have long, monkey arms.

When you're doing 8-10 sets of heavy compounds that involve bimers and trimers, adding another 10 sets of direct arm work is generally overkill. 2-3 sets is a good starting point IMO, some may require more, some less.

Gross generality: compound pushing movements tend to hit triceps harder than many compound pulling (depends on what you do) hit biceps.

About the "strategy":

Basically, one way is to do some extra arm training at home on the same days that you work upper body.

So, maybe do 4 sets each on bis and tris. Throw in a set or two of reverse curls/reverse wrist curls too (forearm development AND it helps to protect the elbows). Shouldn't take more than 15-20min.

Third (off) day (maybe): Just a couple of sets each. 20-25 reps. I do this rarely on off days, mostly because I'm lazy bastard.

That's about it. Give me your money.
That actually makes a lot of sense. I've pretty much done programs revolving around the big lifts with just a couple accessory movements for a couple years now, and I've noticed that my bicep gains seem to be lagging behind my tricep gains (and I'm unhappy with both, but who isn't?). Could also just be genetics though. On the flip side, my squat and deadlift have skyrocketed.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.