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  #1  
Unread 12-15-2016, 07:54 AM
odysseus odysseus is offline
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Default sleep on low carb - serotonin, melatonin

I am experiencing bad sleep not just on low carb but also on low calorie, non-keto levels of carbs (200g carbs per day).

I'm 50 now & my sleep has been worsening in general but on low carb it's terrible, on low calorie it's not terrible but bad.

serotonin gets made into melatonin, but Does low serotonin have effects on sleep other than that?

If anyone has suggestions, the biggest single issue is the 2 to 3 wakings per night - I've been reading a lot of people complaining about waking to pee but that's not what's waking me - I could pee but that urgency I don't think is the thing making me wake up - I often return to sleep without peeing.

Neither Oral melatonin(NOT timed release) nor trazodone (a drug that raises serotonin) help with the wakings and trazodone makes it hard to get up in the morning.

I'm getting some time release melatonin soon to try out - I would try it out today but all the local places I phoned only stock 10mg pills - way too much for me - Wurtman (melatonin's discoverer) thinks much greater than 1mg can lead to habituation.

Last edited by odysseus : 12-15-2016 at 08:22 AM.
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  #2  
Unread 12-15-2016, 08:07 AM
Determinism Determinism is offline
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Try intermittent fasting and consume most of your carbs right before you go to bed. It may suck, but it's better than persistent sleep deprivation.
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  #3  
Unread 12-15-2016, 08:49 AM
Raquel130 Raquel130 is offline
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If either low carb or low calorie are causing serious problems, then don't do low carb or low calorie. If the objective is weight loss, you can simply eat a little more carbs and calories (enough to avoid sleep issues) and opt to get your deficit through increased activity/exercise.

That seems much more reasonable than creating a problem you don't have to have, and then trying to fix it with drugs.
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  #4  
Unread 12-15-2016, 11:45 AM
lylemcdonald lylemcdonald is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raquel130 View Post
If either low carb or low calorie are causing serious problems, then don't do low carb or low calorie. If the objective is weight loss, you can simply eat a little more carbs and calories (enough to avoid sleep issues) and opt to get your deficit through increased activity/exercise.

That seems much more reasonable than creating a problem you don't have to have, and then trying to fix it with drugs.
Well a diet, by definition is lowered calories. So pray tell how does one diet without this?

A compound called orexin goes up as you get lean and screws up sleep. Serotonin on lowcarb makes it worse. Meltaonin is worth trying as is 5-htp. At some point, you gotta suck it up buttercup.
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  #5  
Unread 12-15-2016, 03:07 PM
holly70 holly70 is offline
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Just because I felt compelled to google orexin.

Seems there was a drug developed to target it, but it is pricey and not so great.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/n...omra/index.htm

Quote:
Their analysis shows that people who took a 15 mg or 20 mg dose of Belsomra every night for 3 months fell asleep just 6 minutes faster on average than those who got a placebo pill. And the Belsomra group slept only 16 minutes longeró6 hours and 12 minutes total vs. 5 hours and 56 minutes for the placebo group.

*******

The 10 mg dose was only studied in 62 people, and itís unclear whether it improves sleep. Even Merck, the manufacturer of Belsomra, doubts whether itís better than a placebo. ďThe overall picture is that 10 milligrams is not an effective dose,Ē said W. Joseph Herring, M.D., Merckís executive director of clinical research, neuroscience, and ophthalmology, at the 2013 FDA advisory committee meeting. Yet, the FDAís internal reviewers said the 10 mg dose improved sleep more than placebo. The bottom line is that the 10 mg dose is probably less effective than the 15 or 20 mg dose and it might not be much better than a placebo pill.
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  #6  
Unread 12-15-2016, 03:12 PM
lylemcdonald lylemcdonald is offline
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There is a new compound that they use, I forget the name. Expensive and very new. /ah well, someday
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  #7  
Unread 12-15-2016, 07:02 PM
odysseus odysseus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcdonald View Post
Well a diet, by definition is lowered calories. So pray tell how does one diet without this?

A compound called orexin goes up as you get lean and screws up sleep. Serotonin on lowcarb makes it worse. Meltaonin is worth trying as is 5-htp. At some point, you gotta suck it up buttercup.
yes, true - that part was to simply report my experience. I started my latest effort to get leaner and observed my usual low fat, low carb, high protein was causing this.

Then added carbs (lower deficit but so be it, I want to sleep) - but even with 300 grams boiled potato my sleep is still taking a hit, so I'm increasing my carbs more to titrate back up.

I realized later all these recommendations have been made here long ago - I usually google before asking, this time I brain-farted and googled

site:bodyrecomposition.com sleep serotonin

to get previous discussions - and that doesn't include the forum.

Last edited by odysseus : 12-15-2016 at 07:06 PM. Reason: clarifying
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  #8  
Unread 12-15-2016, 07:08 PM
odysseus odysseus is offline
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Thanks for the feedback folks - even "suck it up" is good because it means I didn't miss anything obvious in my googling.
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  #9  
Unread 12-15-2016, 07:35 PM
odysseus odysseus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raquel130 View Post
If either low carb or low calorie are causing serious problems, then don't do low carb or low calorie. If the objective is weight loss, you can simply eat a little more carbs and calories (enough to avoid sleep issues) and opt to get your deficit through increased activity/exercise.

That seems much more reasonable than creating a problem you don't have to have, and then trying to fix it with drugs.
I'm titrating the carb dose now.

but also, I have way worse sleep than I used to just 5 years ago - diet or no diet - so if there is a drug that may help I need to hear about it one way or the other.
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  #10  
Unread 12-15-2016, 09:10 PM
lylemcdonald lylemcdonald is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odysseus View Post
I'm titrating the carb dose now.

but also, I have way worse sleep than I used to just 5 years ago - diet or no diet - so if there is a drug that may help I need to hear about it one way or the other.
Orexin is a very specific thing and may or may not be relevant to general sleep issues.

Getting old simply sucks
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