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  #11  
Unread 11-06-2014, 06:11 AM
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mrlakramondas mrlakramondas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeh View Post
I am not where i want to be either strength wise or in terms of leanness, so i am struggling with committing to improving either one.

Something that would be mentally easier for me to do is to relatively rapidly alternate between periods gaining muscle and losing fat, so that over time you see an improvement in both areas. for example 1 week of eating at maintenance and higher volume training followed by 1 week of lower volume and daily 650 calorie deficit.

Is this something which might work or is it a recipe for spinning wheels?
I don't think that it's a good approach but I can't say that it won't work at all.
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  #12  
Unread 11-06-2014, 07:31 AM
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kowens kowens is offline
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Sounds like a perfectly good way to spin your wheels and spend a lot of weeks doing it to end up basically where you are now. Might you gain a little muscle and lose a little fat? Maybe. But to put all the time and effort in for 16 weeks (or whatever time frame you had in mind) and see very little results is going to be very frustrating I'm afraid.
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  #13  
Unread 11-06-2014, 11:06 AM
Druboutin Druboutin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeh View Post
i am not asking if its better than doing it the normal way, obviously traditional bulking would be better for muscle gains and traditional cutting could be better for fat loss..

I am just asking if it could work or not, i know it its not better.

And if it would work, how inferior would it be to traditional methods

I need to cut for 16 additional weeks to get to my goal bf% ( already been trying to cut traditionally for just under 3 months not very successfully )

so i would be doing this for 32 weeks, before starting to do it lyles recommended way, lean bulking to 15% then cutting down to 10%

I could do something like 2 weeks bulk 2 weeks cut also i guess
I believe I've seen Lyle comment on this topic with 4-6 weeks bulk, 4-6 weeks cut as an optimal way to reduce the amount of fat put on when adding mass.

With 4-6 weeks, You're giving yourself enough time to add mass (in only 1 or 2 weeks like you're asking about, gains will be insignificant) but not so much time where you add disproportionate amounts of fat. Then you can cut, while focusing on maintaining whatever gains you made, and repeat as many times as you want.

His recommendation could have been 6-8 weeks as opposed to 4-6, I don't remember, but it's either on the main site or in a response to someone on here.

I really don't think you'll see appreciable gains when doing 1 or 2 weeks back and forth, but I have no science to back that up.
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  #14  
Unread 11-06-2014, 12:10 PM
monkeh monkeh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Druboutin View Post
I believe I've seen Lyle comment on this topic with 4-6 weeks bulk, 4-6 weeks cut as an optimal way to reduce the amount of fat put on when adding mass.

With 4-6 weeks, You're giving yourself enough time to add mass (in only 1 or 2 weeks like you're asking about, gains will be insignificant) but not so much time where you add disproportionate amounts of fat. Then you can cut, while focusing on maintaining whatever gains you made, and repeat as many times as you want.

His recommendation could have been 6-8 weeks as opposed to 4-6, I don't remember, but it's either on the main site or in a response to someone on here.

I really don't think you'll see appreciable gains when doing 1 or 2 weeks back and forth, but I have no science to back that up.
I believe what he says is optimal is to bulk at a reasonable surplus untill you hit 15% and then diet down again, for optimal muscle to fat ratio
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/mus...I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post.-gain.html/

i dont know if he has mentioned a specific amount of weeks which would be optimal, but he has said that if your above 15% the muscle gains to fat ratio will be worse.

if you can gain 1 kg in say 6 weeks( just as an example) then arent you gaining 0.16kg each week? surely you dont have to train for a certain amount of weeks before the gains are " realized ".

we'll see, i have decided to try it out and hope it works. If i remember, i can come back in a couple of weeks and report progress.
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  #15  
Unread 11-06-2014, 01:59 PM
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mrlakramondas mrlakramondas is offline
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A couple of weeks? What kind of results do you expect to see in a couple of weeks?
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  #16  
Unread 11-06-2014, 02:34 PM
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mrlakramondas mrlakramondas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Druboutin View Post
I believe I've seen Lyle comment on this topic with 4-6 weeks bulk, 4-6 weeks cut as an optimal way to reduce the amount of fat put on when adding mass.

With 4-6 weeks, You're giving yourself enough time to add mass (in only 1 or 2 weeks like you're asking about, gains will be insignificant) but not so much time where you add disproportionate amounts of fat. Then you can cut, while focusing on maintaining whatever gains you made, and repeat as many times as you want.

His recommendation could have been 6-8 weeks as opposed to 4-6, I don't remember, but it's either on the main site or in a response to someone on here.

I really don't think you'll see appreciable gains when doing 1 or 2 weeks back and forth, but I have no science to back that up.
Why on earth would anyone spend 50% of their time on losing fat if the goal is to build muscle and strength? It doesn't make any sense as a part of a long-term approach (unless you are obese). Losing fat is much easier than building muscle.
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  #17  
Unread 11-06-2014, 02:51 PM
sunnybreezylife sunnybreezylife is offline
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The replies are full of good advice - this is not the way to go. I suggest you try this though to see for yourself. Your body isn't robotic in it's response to nutrition. By my own experience, I find that there is a delayed response to food and training. Just because I had 5 days of surplus or maintenance calories after a cut, it may not show up right away at the gym. In fact, performance might be even worse to sluggishness due to the new increase in calories, or a headache because of the introduction of new foods, or whatever factor might be contributing to the way your body functions at that minute you step under the bar.

Consistency is the only way the body gets results and perhaps after months of this cycle will your body begin to respond slightly to this way, but I doubt eating more or less for 7 days will have any real, tangible result.

That is my anectodal opinion and there are other more intelligent articulations here...but the only way is if you see for yourself.
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  #18  
Unread 11-06-2014, 03:07 PM
Druboutin Druboutin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlakramondas View Post
Why on earth would anyone spend 50% of their time on losing fat if the goal is to build muscle and strength? It doesn't make any sense as a part of a long-term approach (unless you are obese). Losing fat is much easier than building muscle.
You're right, I incorrectly recollected some info. Although, the harder you diet, the more prone you are to losing some of the progress you made building muscle and strength.

So while a cut wouldn't be 50%, it's still going to take considerable time to get the fat off.

If you were able to put on 16 pounds over 16 weeks, and it was an even 50/50 split between muscle and fat (likely best case scenario), it certainly wouldn't take 8 weeks to get the 8 lbs of fat off, but probably would take about 4 to maximize the retention of your gains.

So i'll modify my earlier statement and say we're looking at roughly 25% of time spent dieting, given the trainee is at 15% or sub-15% BF when the mass gaining phase is completed.
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  #19  
Unread 11-06-2014, 03:12 PM
Druboutin Druboutin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnybreezylife View Post
The replies are full of good advice - this is not the way to go. I suggest you try this though to see for yourself. Your body isn't robotic in it's response to nutrition. By my own experience, I find that there is a delayed response to food and training. Just because I had 5 days of surplus or maintenance calories after a cut, it may not show up right away at the gym. In fact, performance might be even worse to sluggishness due to the new increase in calories, or a headache because of the introduction of new foods, or whatever factor might be contributing to the way your body functions at that minute you step under the bar.

Consistency is the only way the body gets results and perhaps after months of this cycle will your body begin to respond slightly to this way, but I doubt eating more or less for 7 days will have any real, tangible result.

That is my anectodal opinion and there are other more intelligent articulations here...but the only way is if you see for yourself.
Agreed. The following is an excerpt from Lyle's article that was posted a few posts up and tells the OP all they need to know about the 1 week on/1 week off strategy:

"The simple fact is that a bodybuilder who refuses to gain any fat and doesn’t put on any muscle between shows won’t be improving year to year. Unless they have perfect symmetry, size, shape, etc. their fear of body fat is preventing them from ever getting any better."
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  #20  
Unread 11-06-2014, 03:42 PM
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mrlakramondas mrlakramondas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Druboutin View Post
You're right, I incorrectly recollected some info. Although, the harder you diet, the more prone you are to losing some of the progress you made building muscle and strength.

So while a cut wouldn't be 50%, it's still going to take considerable time to get the fat off.

If you were able to put on 16 pounds over 16 weeks, and it was an even 50/50 split between muscle and fat (likely best case scenario), it certainly wouldn't take 8 weeks to get the 8 lbs of fat off, but probably would take about 4 to maximize the retention of your gains.

So i'll modify my earlier statement and say we're looking at roughly 25% of time spent dieting, given the trainee is at 15% or sub-15% BF when the mass gaining phase is completed.
It's not just a question of how much time you spend doing one thing in terms of %-ages (I'm not saying that you think that). The overall time frame and having realistic expectations are important factors to consider too.

I think one muscle gain strategy that isn't mentioned enough is one where you have a longer period of eating at a caloric balance after a period of overeating. If you train well and know what you are doing the training can be productive even when you aren't in a caloric surplus (all the time). One doesn't have to constantly shift back and forth between bulking and dieting. This way you can spend longer periods on gaining muscle instead of constantly interrupting your gaining momentum with dieting.

Last edited by mrlakramondas : 11-06-2014 at 03:54 PM.
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