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  #11  
Unread 06-02-2018, 05:04 PM
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BEATMEOUTTAME BEATMEOUTTAME is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zLeeKo View Post
We're talking about hypertrophy, not strength, even tho they're correlated.

Conclusion: do both low and high reps.

Right but if one guy is doing sets of 12-15 with 225 lbs and the other guy is doing sets of 12-15 with 135 lbs... who is going to get more hypertrophy??

I'm not buying what these studies are selling.
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  #12  
Unread 06-02-2018, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by BEATMEOUTTAME View Post
Right but if one guy is doing sets of 12-15 with 225 lbs and the other guy is doing sets of 12-15 with 135 lbs... who is going to get more hypertrophy??

I'm not buying what these studies are selling.
12-15 is not strength training.
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  #13  
Unread 06-02-2018, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by squat View Post
12-15 is not strength training.
huh? I'm talking about hypertrophy. If we are both working out in the 12-15 rep range but I'm using heavier weights than you... won't I ultimately develop more muscle mass??

I just find this to be incredibly difficult to believe that the amount of weight you are lifting doesn't ultimately matter.


I mean I've seen plenty of guys who weren't that "big" because they stayed in the low rep ranges and kept continuously trying to build strength... but the ones who built a base of strength then converted to higher rep ranges ALL got big... I can't think of a single counter example...

I can think of numerous people who just kept lifting high reps and never got much stronger and therefore stalled out on progressive overload training hard enough that they never got very far.
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Last edited by BEATMEOUTTAME : 06-02-2018 at 08:46 PM. Reason: a
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  #14  
Unread 06-03-2018, 08:08 AM
AlphaBettor AlphaBettor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEATMEOUTTAME View Post
huh? I'm talking about hypertrophy. If we are both working out in the 12-15 rep range but I'm using heavier weights than you... won't I ultimately develop more muscle mass??

I just find this to be incredibly difficult to believe that the amount of weight you are lifting doesn't ultimately matter.


I mean I've seen plenty of guys who weren't that "big" because they stayed in the low rep ranges and kept continuously trying to build strength... but the ones who built a base of strength then converted to higher rep ranges ALL got big... I can't think of a single counter example...

I can think of numerous people who just kept lifting high reps and never got much stronger and therefore stalled out on progressive overload training hard enough that they never got very far.
On one hand, I understand what you're saying that ultimately, natural trainees have to get stronger to get bigger. Heavy(ish) sets in the 5-8 range or so are very helpful for this.

On the other hand, I think you oversimplify this way too much and use silly examples to prove your point. Sets of 12-15 with 225 vs sets of 12-15 with 135. Differences in training don't actually change things like that in the real world. Take the same guy and have him do 3x10 at 195 vs 3x5 at 225, which one does he get stronger (or grow better) on? You can see how a more realistic example complicates things. What is he used to, what does he respond better to, is he doing assistance work on top of this? etc.

As far as counter examples.. I have lost count of the number of young guys I've seen in my gym who do the squat/press/pull for sets of 5 style of training who who stall out very early. Grindy presses for sets of 5 in the 95 lb range (after they're done squatting of course) with little/no improvement beyond that, surely you have seen this if you have spent much time in a gym.

I'm not saying it's a bad way to train mind you, but to make it sound like if you do low reps you're going to get super strong then switch to higher reps and get huge often doesn't work like that in practice.
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  #15  
Unread 06-03-2018, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEATMEOUTTAME View Post
huh? I'm talking about hypertrophy. If we are both working out in the 12-15 rep range but I'm using heavier weights than you... won't I ultimately develop more muscle mass??

I just find this to be incredibly difficult to believe that the amount of weight you are lifting doesn't ultimately matter.


I mean I've seen plenty of guys who weren't that "big" because they stayed in the low rep ranges and kept continuously trying to build strength... but the ones who built a base of strength then converted to higher rep ranges ALL got big... I can't think of a single counter example...

I can think of numerous people who just kept lifting high reps and never got much stronger and therefore stalled out on progressive overload training hard enough that they never got very far.

Alphabettor said some rational things.

All I'm saying is, you misunderstand zleeko. Strength training is low reps. Hypertrophy is naturally higher reps. Different types of training. Lower reps are more intense, especially neurally speaking. On a linear progression of low reps, strength training, you will become exhausted. Your brain will adapt faster than your muscles. Hypertrophy training is smoother, since you're focused on stressing the muscle to grow, at a natural pace, instead of adding weight to a bar.


Having said this, for novices, there is merit to strength training in the name of expediting hypertrophy in the long run.. This is really only because in the beginning, you are untrained, and your cns is not adapted to take advantage of the muscles you already possess. Therefore, while muscle growth is slow overall, if you can train yourself to your physical potential neurally, initially, you would gain more from hypertrophy training thereafter, since the loads are heavier to stimulate actual physical adaptation. So the theory goes. In practice, this rarely happens. At some point, you may just realize that you were being needlessly impatient.


Also, this is a dichotomy, unnecessarily. Certain lifts should be approached for strength, many for hypertrophy. It's never either/or, nor all-encompassing. There's an intelligent way to go about training, but what it is... isn't quite obvious. High and low reps. Yeah.

Last edited by squat : 06-03-2018 at 09:49 PM.
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  #16  
Unread 06-04-2018, 08:46 PM
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BEATMEOUTTAME BEATMEOUTTAME is offline
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Okay. I can get behind what you guys are saying in the last two posts as they are a lot more in line with what I was trying to say.


As for the people stalling out in their strength lifts I would say they are doing one of the following:

1) Not getting proper nutrition
2) Not getting proper sleep/recovery
3) Doing too much cardio
4) Not keeping a diligent training schedule and log
5) Not utilizing techniques effectively to get "unstuck" like deloading
6) Drinking a lot of alcohol.

Whenever i start lifting in the 5 range the weights shoot up pretty quickly until i get off track. Can't say I've ever gotten to the point where I stalled due to the program itself not working.
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  #17  
Unread 06-05-2018, 03:16 AM
squat squat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEATMEOUTTAME View Post
Okay. I can get behind what you guys are saying in the last two posts as they are a lot more in line with what I was trying to say.


As for the people stalling out in their strength lifts I would say they are doing one of the following:

1) Not getting proper nutrition
2) Not getting proper sleep/recovery
3) Doing too much cardio
4) Not keeping a diligent training schedule and log
5) Not utilizing techniques effectively to get "unstuck" like deloading
6) Drinking a lot of alcohol.

Whenever i start lifting in the 5 range the weights shoot up pretty quickly until i get off track. Can't say I've ever gotten to the point where I stalled due to the program itself not working.
That's funny, because you've evidently stalled on every program. So it was just your fault? Fair enough.

If you insist on blaming the trainee, then what was the program responsible for? A program must be compliable. You are the evidence that you are either wrong, or tragically correct, but I'm not really sure what point you mean to make besides just saying something. You don't have to elaborate. I know you don't know what you're talking about.
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  #18  
Unread 06-05-2018, 09:02 AM
fyodor fyodor is offline
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There are definitely some exercises that I can't improve at doing short sets. I need to train in the 8-12 range to progress. I *hear* a lot from people on the Internet that sets of five are the way to go but it doesn't match what I see at my gym or my own personal experience. Often the discussions are full of bunk about heavy weights and compound exercises driving global metabolic changes or something.

The stuff about people stalling out because they drink too much or whatever is kind of beside the point. Obviously all of those things matter regardless of your training, but there's no reason to think that the five rep people are all drinking too much or are sleep deprived.

For the OP, the nice thing about this is that you can try it out yourself and see how it works for you. You certainly won't do real harm to anything if you spend a month working out in the 12-15 range.
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  #19  
Unread 06-05-2018, 11:48 AM
fyodor fyodor is offline
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No true Scotsman...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEATMEOUTTAME View Post
Okay. I can get behind what you guys are saying in the last two posts as they are a lot more in line with what I was trying to say.


As for the people stalling out in their strength lifts I would say they are doing one of the following:

1) Not getting proper nutrition
2) Not getting proper sleep/recovery
3) Doing too much cardio
4) Not keeping a diligent training schedule and log
5) Not utilizing techniques effectively to get "unstuck" like deloading
6) Drinking a lot of alcohol.

Whenever i start lifting in the 5 range the weights shoot up pretty quickly until i get off track. Can't say I've ever gotten to the point where I stalled due to the program itself not working.
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  #20  
Unread 06-05-2018, 08:29 PM
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BEATMEOUTTAME BEATMEOUTTAME is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squat View Post
That's funny, because you've evidently stalled on every program. So it was just your fault? Fair enough.

If you insist on blaming the trainee, then what was the program responsible for? A program must be compliable. You are the evidence that you are either wrong, or tragically correct, but I'm not really sure what point you mean to make besides just saying something. You don't have to elaborate. I know you don't know what you're talking about.

It was always #6 drinking too much alcohol that occured first.

That would lead to #2 which is impaired sleep/recovery.

Which would also lead to #4 which was not keeping a diligent training schedule.

Which would lead to #1 which was not getting proper nutrition because if I'm not training I don't bother eating well.


If you've got a good program for someone drinking 6.5x per week let me know.
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My Wild Ride to A great body in my 30s.

http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=23215

Thank you Lyle. This website is a game changer once you understand the mechanisms behind fat loss/muscle gain.

Spun my wheels for years prior to finding this site.
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