BodyRecomposition Support Forums  

Go Back   BodyRecomposition Support Forums > General information > General training questions
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Unread 02-16-2013, 01:35 PM
mrlakramondas's Avatar
mrlakramondas mrlakramondas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 3,815
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdoftruth View Post
Given a proper setup of the Barbell Overhead press, I've found that it's a great movement for triceps, ant deltoid, and at a mediocre level--Traps, medial and posterior deltoid. By the time your head is under the bar, your triceps and anterior deltoid has done most of the work and your humerus is already past the parallel point of the deltoids so even if you get the bar over your head and even back some, it's merely working the medial and posterior delts in a static manner. Even a wider grip doesn't completely solve this issue.

Where as an upright row or a lateral raise seems to add more mass to the shoulders in that the medial deltoid is being fully stimulated without compromise

This has been my experience, barring any sort of attachment people here may have to this exercise, what have been more effective for your best shoulder gains?
I wouldn't say OHP is overrated. Rather it's a question of your expectations being inflated. If you want to fully develop your shoulders it generally takes more than shoulder presses. This is hardly news for anyone with bodybuilding experience.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Unread 02-16-2013, 01:54 PM
mrlakramondas's Avatar
mrlakramondas mrlakramondas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 3,815
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slave2getFIT View Post
I myself have noticed the MOST shoulder development since including OP into my routine. Once I started doing 5/3/1 and OP once a week as my only DIRECT shoulder exercise my delt development improved a lot. I used to do like 15 sets a week for shoulders with lateral raises, rear delt flys, cable laterals, etc and now with just 3 sets a week of Overhead press with the barbell my shoulders look the best.
Why not do both? Shoulder presses AND isolation work.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Unread 02-16-2013, 02:12 PM
lostmyoldaccount lostmyoldaccount is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 932
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlakramondas View Post
I wouldn't say OHP is overrated. Rather it's a question of your expectations being inflated. If you want to fully develop your shoulders it generally takes more than shoulder presses. This is hardly news for anyone with bodybuilding experience.
What exactly does it take?
__________________
Half-way measures don't get very far. You can only do one thing well at a time. Trying to gain muscle while losing fat will result in failure.

Get to 10% bodyfat first while lifting weights heavy 3x a week with reduced volume. Two weeks maintenance. Bulk up slowly (1 lb weight gain per week max), focus on getting stronger, measure body composition changes often.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Unread 02-16-2013, 06:01 PM
forsaken3400's Avatar
forsaken3400 forsaken3400 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 213
Default

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkOG9sFgYeA
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Unread 02-17-2013, 06:31 AM
A-GAME A-GAME is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 8
Default

For me the problem is injuries. For years I have had trouble with military press, and no matter which way I tried, I just couldn't seem to progress. Most recently I was trying neutral grip military press because it supposedly puts less stress on the shoulders. Unfortunately this didn't work either so now I am back utilizing side raises, face pulls and rear delt flyes. The front delts get hit training heavy bench press twice per week so my shoulder development is coming along nicely now and there is a lot less risk of injury. Not as impressive as a heavy OH press, but it gets the job done and I am of the opinion it is much better to consistently progress on an inferior exercise, than to use the superior exercise and constantly injure myself.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Unread 02-17-2013, 09:49 AM
Birdoftruth Birdoftruth is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 381
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlakramondas View Post
Why not do both? Shoulder presses AND isolation work.
Because when you try Lyle Mcd style with 2 upper and 2 lower days. It makes it hard to efficiently increase strength when you have two major push exercises as which ever one you do first will compromise the other. Which then takes away from you doing a variation of the other exercise.

monday - upper day
Start off with Bench press -
Chinup -
Overhead press - Now my OHP is gonna be weaker because my tris were worked
row -

Thursday - upper day
Start off with OHP
chin up
incline/flat/decline bench - now this movement is compromised because worked triceps
row -

Now one could say, oh do lateral raise when you start off with bench press press so as to avoid the issues of worked triceps being the bottleneck. This would work, except for us who don't only do flat bench. Others desire to do incline press and flat/decline because they have an attachment to incline. I have to do incline bench and decline because of a shoulder impingement issue with flat bench (tall guy with long lever arms). So programming gets screwy when having to do two different push exercises for chest.

Last edited by Birdoftruth : 02-17-2013 at 09:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Unread 02-17-2013, 10:10 AM
mrlakramondas's Avatar
mrlakramondas mrlakramondas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 3,815
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdoftruth View Post
Because when you try Lyle Mcd style with 2 upper and 2 lower days. It makes it hard to efficiently increase strength when you have two major push exercises as which ever one you do first will compromise the other. Which then takes away from you doing a variation of the other exercise.

monday - upper day
Start off with Bench press -
Chinup -
Overhead press - Now my OHP is gonna be weaker because my tris were worked
row -

Thursday - upper day
Start off with OHP
chin up
incline/flat/decline bench - now this movement is compromised because worked triceps
row -

Now one could say, oh do lateral raise when you start off with bench press press so as to avoid the issues of worked triceps being the bottleneck. This would work, except for us who don't only do flat bench. Others desire to do incline press and flat/decline because they have an attachment to incline. I have to do incline bench and decline because of a shoulder impingement issue with flat bench (tall guy with long lever arms). So programming gets screwy when having to do two different push exercises for chest.
This has all been discussed in the bulking routine thread (+ other threads) and as many others you seem to forget that you are never locked to doing one routine. You can vary things over time. One period focus more on shoulder presses, another period more on incline presses etc etc.

There are also other set ups you can use. You can set up a hybrid routine such chest/back, legs, delts/arms, full body. On delt/arm day you can do both shoulder presses and isolation work for delts.

Programming doesn't have to get screwy if you know what you are doing which includes utilizing sequential programming.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Unread 02-17-2013, 10:26 AM
slave2getFIT slave2getFIT is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlakramondas View Post
This has all been discussed in the bulking routine thread (+ other threads) and as many others you seem to forget that you are never locked to doing one routine. You can vary things over time. One period focus more on shoulder presses, another period more on incline presses etc etc.

There are also other set ups you can use. You can set up a hybrid routine such chest/back, legs, delts/arms, full body. On delt/arm day you can do both shoulder presses and isolation work for delts.

Programming doesn't have to get screwy if you know what you are doing which includes utilizing sequential programming.
I don't do the MP AND an iso movement because there also becomes a problem with not "cluttering" the workout, or adding too much. If I could add in some side laterals, or facepulls, or whatever I wouldn't mind. But I'm running 5/3/1 the Dave Tate Perodization template which is mainly compound movements. I'm pretty whiped by the last exercise so I guess programming it in is difficult.

And yes, I was doing 15 sets a week for delts before over 2 days with 2 chest/delt/tri days. Now with my 1 main MP press in 5/3/1 and other exercises that hit delts like heavy dips, bench press, and incline db press my shoulders look fine.

I even thought about adding in some iso work and decided it wouldn;t be as beneficial. For example Dave Tate's Perodization Bible says after Millitary Press 5 sets of 10 reps for Lats or Upper Back-- I was orignially going to do 3 sets of Barbell rows, and 2 sets of facepulls. But then I thought, why chose an iso over a huge compound lift that will hit my rear delts anyway? 3x10 Rows, and 2x10 facepulls vs 5 x 10 Rows.. I'm going with the rows. Point is, I see why Lyle only had MP in the bulk routine. I think if you hit it hard enough, and hit all your other chest presses your delts will be wrecked. Now, I also agree the iso and extra volume won't hurt so I'm not disagreeing. If you could add it and have time sure go for it, but I personally dont think its needed.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Unread 02-17-2013, 11:11 AM
mrlakramondas's Avatar
mrlakramondas mrlakramondas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 3,815
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slave2getFIT View Post
I don't do the MP AND an iso movement because there also becomes a problem with not "cluttering" the workout, or adding too much. If I could add in some side laterals, or facepulls, or whatever I wouldn't mind. But I'm running 5/3/1 the Dave Tate Perodization template which is mainly compound movements. I'm pretty whiped by the last exercise so I guess programming it in is difficult.

And yes, I was doing 15 sets a week for delts before over 2 days with 2 chest/delt/tri days. Now with my 1 main MP press in 5/3/1 and other exercises that hit delts like heavy dips, bench press, and incline db press my shoulders look fine.

I even thought about adding in some iso work and decided it wouldn;t be as beneficial. For example Dave Tate's Perodization Bible says after Millitary Press 5 sets of 10 reps for Lats or Upper Back-- I was orignially going to do 3 sets of Barbell rows, and 2 sets of facepulls. But then I thought, why chose an iso over a huge compound lift that will hit my rear delts anyway? 3x10 Rows, and 2x10 facepulls vs 5 x 10 Rows.. I'm going with the rows. Point is, I see why Lyle only had MP in the bulk routine. I think if you hit it hard enough, and hit all your other chest presses your delts will be wrecked. Now, I also agree the iso and extra volume won't hurt so I'm not disagreeing. If you could add it and have time sure go for it, but I personally dont think its needed.
None of that makes any sense to me.

edit: Seriously, you are constantly asking about various programs and your main focus seems to be bodybuilding. Yet you can't manage to do a proper growth routine? I don't get it. This is not rocket science. A bit of isolation work for shoulders doesn't take many minutes.

Last edited by mrlakramondas : 02-17-2013 at 11:21 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Unread 02-17-2013, 03:05 PM
slave2getFIT slave2getFIT is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 153
Default

I understand where you are coming from. And I don't disagree at all.

As far as your comment about me doing a routine primarily for bodybuilding and growth, yes that is my goal. But, as strength is important in making continous gains I chose 531 with higher rep accessory work. Just like many other natural bodybuilders- or like bodybuilders who use Sheiko which is a powerlifting program. Theyre goal is to get big but use programs to get them stronger to aid in that. I see many natty prep coaches put theire clients on programs like 5/3/1 all the time, liek Matt ogus was on it too
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.