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  #501  
Unread 09-09-2013, 07:19 PM
niloluiz niloluiz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdoftruth View Post
...As I researched how BP is affected from DNP, concilliator had said there was research done that showed there was a striking amelioration High Blood pressure of Hypertensive people. So I speculated to my sister that her migraines may indeed subside as she takes DNP...

Well it has been nearly two weeks and she has not had a migraine yet. I know this has not been a long time. But every week on the dot she gets one migraine and it lasts for three days. While obviously more time is needed, this is pretty amazing if it turns out to be a preventative measure for her migraines.

Hail DNP.
Reduction of BP was indeed a common effect. It may simple be a direct result of weight loss which naturally tend to improve BP issues.
In addition, it might be the effect of DNP on the brain/CNS since there's research that shows a protective effect in neurological tissues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kache View Post
Meh, the 99.5% powder supplier just answered, and said $320, shipped with DHL...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MFS View Post
Ya the crystal is ~60, makes no sense whatsoever unless they're spending a fortune to ship it. I wonder what they would charge if they shipped it EMS, since it's ~45 via EMS.
There's no reason to go for a non-crystal supplier. I did a superficial search before acquiring and it's not common so I didn't bother looking for it. The only convenience is that you don't need to take the 25% sodium into account when capping.... so 100mg is 100mg..... besides that the powder must also be transported wet so you will have to dry it anyway...

DHL is about 2.5x the price of EMS so for most US locations this would be around $100 just for the shipping. DNP itself should not be more than $30 or so per kg.
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  #502  
Unread 09-09-2013, 10:04 PM
MFS MFS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niloluiz View Post
There's no reason to go for a non-crystal supplier. I did a superficial search before acquiring and it's not common so I didn't bother looking for it. The only convenience is that you don't need to take the 25% sodium into account when capping.... so 100mg is 100mg..... besides that the powder must also be transported wet so you will have to dry it anyway...

DHL is about 2.5x the price of EMS so for most US locations this would be around $100 just for the shipping. DNP itself should not be more than $30 or so per kg.
Hm, I wonder if you could get a broken-down quote for the product vs the shipping. The appeal of powder is the constant steady-state effect versus the apparently spiky nature of the salt, and erm, we all want the very best for our plants right?
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  #503  
Unread 09-10-2013, 01:04 AM
niloluiz niloluiz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MFS View Post
The appeal of powder is the constant steady-state effect versus the apparently spiky nature of the salt, and erm, we all want the very best for our plants right?
No, that's a myth, just like the misinformation floating around saying that Crystal is "stronger". That's all BS.

Bellow is a quote from Conciliator addressing this question in detail (emphasis mine):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conciliator
Crystal DNP contains less actual DNP than powder DNP for a given dose. When you take crystal DNP, peak levels will be lower (though they may be high enough to produce a strong sense of heat and sweating). More importantly, levels drop as the drug is metabolized. Since crystal DNP produces a lower peak, at any given time point thereafter, there would also be lower levels in the body (assuming the two have the same pharmacokinetics). This means that a given dose of crystal DNP will more quickly be reduced to a level low enough that the heat seems to have subsided. You might compare it to taking 500mg of powder DNP versus 400mg of powder DNP. Both produce moderate-high blood levels that make you hot and sweaty, with the 500mg dose producing even a greater effect, though you might not be able to tell the difference too well. However, at the lower dose, you'll reach a point where you feel cool more quickly. IMO, the faster effect of crystal DNP is merely a matter of ingesting less DNP. I think the notion that crystal DNP comes on faster, with a higher peak level, is in people's heads (put there by one of the bro guides on DNP). However, I think the notion that the side effects subside more quickly is correct, owing to fact that less DNP is being ingested. As far as I know, the pharmacokinetics (i.e. absorption, distribution, and metabolism) of the two forms has never been tested or compared, so take my hypothesis for what it's worth. I could very well be wrong.
Source: http://thinksteroids.com/forum/stero...tml#post663676

So the notion that Crystal fades faster is because it has less DNP content and if you compare 200mg of powder with 200mg of crystal, the crystal will appear to act "faster" with "less sides" (typical claims people throw elsewhere) but that's because it contains 25% less DNP so you will be ingesting less - in the above example 200 - 25% = 150mg.

That's why I said the only convenience of the powder is not having account for this difference. If you want 200mg of actual DNP using crystal you must cap ~267mg (200 / 0.75).

Also there's no specific research comparing pharmacokinetics of both so while it's possible that some unknown difference exists, there's no proof or evidence.

On a tangent, take a look at this post:
http://thinksteroids.com/forum/stero...tml#post665200

In case anyone wondered if the 25% sodium content of the crystal is always 25%, that explains.
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  #504  
Unread 09-10-2013, 02:54 AM
MFS MFS is offline
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I never said it was stronger, merely that the reported kinetics were different. His statement is based on the assumption that "assuming the two have the same pharmacokinetics", so it's circular reasoning in that regard.

In the interest of science, sodium phenolate solutions at low pH (say by the addition of HCl) should protonate (based on pKa) and precipitate out of solution as the solubility of the phenol is quite low I would imagine. Obviously you wouldn't do this at home...

http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/index.cfm?o...6438063B9D5889
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  #505  
Unread 09-10-2013, 09:53 AM
Birdoftruth Birdoftruth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboned View Post
Before she started using DNP, what was her blood pressure?
nurse didn't say, just told her high blood pressure. And doc linked the migraines to her BP.
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  #506  
Unread 09-10-2013, 10:36 AM
kache kache is offline
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[joke] I wonder if DNP+eating like a pig is more or less expensive than heating the apartment the whole winter... [/joke]
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  #507  
Unread 09-10-2013, 02:21 PM
niloluiz niloluiz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MFS View Post
I never said it was stronger, merely that the reported kinetics were different. His statement is based on the assumption that "assuming the two have the same pharmacokinetics", so it's circular reasoning in that regard.
I know you didn't said stronger and I didn't implied that you said either, I just equated those claims people make elsewhere to the same line of BS that ignore well researched and known facts about DNP.

As for the pharmacokinetics, in the absence of proof or at least solid evidence, the hypotheses presented by Conciliator is a very good explanation for those reported claims. Keep in mind that people's perception of the effects of DNP vary greatly and those claims are made in BB forums where people take the same dosage of both versions of DNP and then try to draw conclusions. I didn't saw a single post of anyone doing a proper comparison of let's say 200mg powder vs 267mg crystal (which would be a true apples to apples comparison).

Contrast this with all the research made where the only observation made is that crystal have 25% less DNP than the raw powder alternative. Once in the body, the sodium salt is cleaved and you get the exact same content. So I prefer to go with a more sound explanation than giving credence to myths/baseless claims.

Quote:
In the interest of science, sodium phenolate solutions at low pH (say by the addition of HCl) should protonate (based on pKa) and precipitate out of solution as the solubility of the phenol is quite low I would imagine. Obviously you wouldn't do this at home...

http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/index.cfm?o...6438063B9D5889
So this more or less simulate the fate of the sodium DNP in the stomach. Considering that DNP itself is "uber-pervasive", going thru everything all the way to the cells mitochondrias any possible difference would have minimal impact if any. Like I said there's no facts of solid evidence suggesting any difference, just bro-reports scattered over the internet alluding to that. Once in the body, both versions behave the same, the only real difference being actual mg of DNP ingested.
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  #508  
Unread 09-10-2013, 04:10 PM
beatle beatle is offline
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Default Permanent Effects of DNP

Excuse my ignorance but I thought I remember reading someone stating that DNP may cause an increase in mitochondrial density that will remain after discontinuing use of DNP. Is there any truth to this or any other long term effects?

Thanks
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  #509  
Unread 09-10-2013, 05:59 PM
MFS MFS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niloluiz View Post
As for the pharmacokinetics, in the absence of proof or at least solid evidence, the hypotheses presented by Conciliator is a very good explanation for those reported claims. Keep in mind that people's perception of the effects of DNP vary greatly and those claims are made in BB forums where people take the same dosage of both versions of DNP and then try to draw conclusions. I didn't saw a single post of anyone doing a proper comparison of let's say 200mg powder vs 267mg crystal (which would be a true apples to apples comparison)

So this more or less simulate the fate of the sodium DNP in the stomach. Considering that DNP itself is "uber-pervasive", going thru everything all the way to the cells mitochondrias any possible difference would have minimal impact if any. Like I said there's no facts of solid evidence suggesting any difference, just bro-reports scattered over the internet alluding to that. Once in the body, both versions behave the same, the only real difference being actual mg of DNP ingested.
The placebo effect is godawful, I agree. The issue wasn't so much that the down happened sooner as that people claimed that the "high" was higher. In any event I never thought it was necessarily a big deal. I'm curious as to why the phenolates would be so underdosed, or rather what they would be cutting them with.

Do you have any links or opinions on the cataract issues? I've heard stuff about GALT [galactose] deficiencies, gender specificity (though not necessarily complete), pyruvate and all kinds of antioxidant stuff (mostly C/E supplementation).
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  #510  
Unread 09-11-2013, 03:32 PM
niloluiz niloluiz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatle View Post
Excuse my ignorance but I thought I remember reading someone stating that DNP may cause an increase in mitochondrial density that will remain after discontinuing use of DNP. Is there any truth to this or any other long term effects?

Thanks
Yes this a proven fact. DNP increases mitochondrial density which is a positive and lasting effect. This was mentioned in this thread before and there's lots of useful information here as well.

I strongly recommend jumping to page 1 and read it all. It's well worth the time if you are either using it or considering do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MFS View Post
The placebo effect is godawful, I agree. The issue wasn't so much that the down happened sooner as that people claimed that the "high" was higher. In any event I never thought it was necessarily a big deal. I'm curious as to why the phenolates would be so underdosed, or rather what they would be cutting them with.

Do you have any links or opinions on the cataract issues? I've heard stuff about GALT [galactose] deficiencies, gender specificity (though not necessarily complete), pyruvate and all kinds of antioxidant stuff (mostly C/E supplementation).
Well I started using the crystal I acquired totally replacing the pre-capped powder version I had. I will later post some observations regarding the manipulation but it wasn't as bad as I expected.

Regarding the effect / sensation I probably will have some observations to do and it's shaping to be somewhat surprising... I will allow more 3 days or so to draw any conclusions than share my impressions here.

With relation to the cataracts, there is one research open to the public that did a resume of the history of DNP and mentioned with some details all the attempts made at the time DNP was suspended to solve this "puzzle", that is, to find by what mechanism cataracts were induced.

They tried all you can imagine.... like injecting DNP directily into the cornea, bathing the cornea in it, etc... and ALL attempts failed. Almost 20 years later it was discovered what caused cataracts.... it was a rare metabolite that some genetically predisposed people wasn't able to handle.

I will see if I find the link but I mentioned this in this thread with a quote from conciliator and possible a link. Try skimming this topic and see if you find that post.

Anyway the puzzle was solved and while it's not certain, it's speculated that taking anti-oxidants may provide some insurance against that, for those predisposed. In any case this is a very-rare side-effect as you will see if you research this subject properly.
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