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  #11  
Unread 03-23-2008, 06:40 AM
Mike Mike is offline
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Default No Fat?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
you don't need fat for anything except caloric ballast on a ketogenic diet, eating more fat simply means losing less body fat
Hi Lyle:


It isn't clear from the above, but a diet completely without fat will cause a highly dangerous condition characterized by dry skin. Unfortunately the book (currently my bible) with the name of this is downstairs at the moment. Though it is hard enough reading to actually burn calories, so far I haven't come across anything in it about any pathology except ketosis caused by eliminating carbs. And even that is treated as matter of altered blood pH. Nonetheless I strongly suspect that your claims about Serotonin and etc. are valid.

Barring any info to the contrary, I assume that a ketogenic diet will contain the needed amounts of fats and/or cholesterol either as fish oils or the fat contained in even lean red meat and broiled chicken.


Cheers;
Mike

Last edited by Mike : 03-23-2008 at 07:21 AM. Reason: I'm new here.
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  #12  
Unread 03-23-2008, 09:00 AM
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Nigeepoo Nigeepoo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike View Post
Hi Lyle:
It isn't clear from the above, but a diet completely without fat will cause a highly dangerous condition characterized by dry skin.
It's worse than that. He's dead, Jim!
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Originally Posted by Mike View Post
Barring any info to the contrary, I assume that a ketogenic diet will contain the needed amounts of fats and/or cholesterol either as fish oils or the fat contained in even lean red meat and broiled chicken.
Cheers;
Mike
You assume correctly.
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  #13  
Unread 03-23-2008, 10:48 AM
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lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike View Post
Hi Lyle:


It isn't clear from the above, but a diet completely without fat will cause a highly dangerous condition characterized by dry skin.
short of using nothing but processed powders, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to get a diet ocmpletely void of fat.

Anyhow, I was simply talking about the physiology of ketosis/lowcarb adaptation. For which fat is not required.

Quote:
Unfortunately the book (currently my bible) with the name of this is downstairs at the moment. Though it is hard enough reading to actually burn calories, so far I haven't come across anything in it about any pathology except ketosis caused by eliminating carbs. And even that is treated as matter of altered blood pH. Nonetheless I strongly suspect that your claims about Serotonin and etc. are valid.
my claims are always valid
excpt when I'm making them up and I'll usually tell you when I'm guessing

Quote:
Barring any info to the contrary, I assume that a ketogenic diet will contain the needed amounts of fats and/or cholesterol either as fish oils or the fat contained in even lean red meat and broiled chicken.
as above, it is nearly impossible to make a diet that contains zero fat outside of a hospital situation. there will always be tagalong amounts in whole foods of ust about any sort.

again, my point simply had to do with the misguided idea that one should reduce protein and increase fat for some reason while trying to lose fat.

Lyle
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  #14  
Unread 06-09-2008, 03:16 PM
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evenbalance1 evenbalance1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
it's all about fat balance and there's simply no need to have 75% fat in the diet for anything. the adaptations to lowcarbs is primaily due to the lack of carbs NOT the presence of fat. which is why a high fat ketogenic diet (high fat, low carbs), protein sparingmodified fast (all protein, no fat) and fasting (nothing) all show bsaically identical adaptations. the fat intake isn't required

EXCEPT FOR EPILEPTIC CHILDREN.

as well one of the few places that switching out macros in this fashion does anything is when protein replaces anything. this is b/c the body doesn't generally ramp up protein oxidation (burning) to the same level as protein intake

so even at the same calories, a keto diet higher in fat/lower in protein sould show slight differences than higher in protein/lower in fat. if nothing else, you need the higher protein to offset LBM losses

if you do the math on a 25% protein diet at low calories, it NEVER achieves the amount of protein that you need to hit goals.

that is, 1400 calories * 0.25 = 350 calories from protein. just over 80 grams

that might work for a cat3 dieter who wasn't too big (1.5 g/kg) and wasn't training

for a lean athlete, it's nowhere close to what's needed.

but if you then adjust protein requrements to the optimal levels (say 1.5 g/lb LBM and let's say that's 250 grams protein), to get 75% fat means raising calories to monstrous levels. zero fat loss

so if 250 grams protein/1000 calories is 25% of your intake, then total calories have to be 4000 to hit a 25:75 ratio

looking at it in terms of percentages is simply incorrect here.
are you saying that the high fat ratio of the ketogenic diet is not required?

also, must you eat fat in order to lose fat?(i may soud like a complete moron with this question.)

Last edited by evenbalance1 : 06-09-2008 at 03:19 PM.
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  #15  
Unread 06-09-2008, 07:17 PM
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lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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yes

and

no

in that order

a massive fatrotein ratio is only relevant for epilepsy treatment. not for fat loss
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  #16  
Unread 06-09-2008, 07:39 PM
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evenbalance1 evenbalance1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
yes

and

no

in that order

a massive fatrotein ratio is only relevant for epilepsy treatment. not for fat loss
awesome thx.
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  #17  
Unread 06-10-2008, 09:48 AM
RichardGrinder RichardGrinder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
since we can't measure blood ketones, urinary concentrations are all that we have. but it's only indirect and you can easily be in ketosis (blood concentrations) without showing urinary ketones
This meter can: http://www.abbottdiabetescare.com/co...ofile_0004.htm
If you want to afford up to 60$ for 10 test strips that is.
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  #18  
Unread 06-10-2008, 09:56 AM
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lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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interesting, that's new
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