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  #1  
Unread 02-29-2008, 05:18 AM
Trooper Trooper is offline
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Question Aggression,Memory problems even Psychosis on this diet!

Hello Lyle Mcdonald.



Two times followed your diet but each time when i'm in the ketogenic state i experience extreme aggression,pychosis and even now i have permanent memory problems by this diet.

have you heard this before?





Yours sincerly

Trooper.

Last edited by Trooper : 02-29-2008 at 05:22 AM.
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  #2  
Unread 02-29-2008, 10:29 AM
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some people really don't respond well to very low carbs, it sounds like you're one of them

how long were you on ketogenic diets before giving up on them?
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  #3  
Unread 02-29-2008, 11:27 AM
Trooper Trooper is offline
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The first time i was for 10 weeks on the diet and lost 23 kilo.
The second time can´t remember anymore but it was less than 10 weeks.

Aggression,permanent memory problems, psychosis have you heard this before?
Could this be caused by certain hormones such I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post. Cortisol or do you think there's something else going on? Serotonine


Please explain.
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  #4  
Unread 02-29-2008, 11:31 AM
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could be cortisol, could be low serotonin. without blood/saliva work there' no way to tell

more important is that
a. you've noticed this occur twice
b. it would therefore be silly to continue trying to diet this way

set up a moderate carb, non-ketogenic diet and get to it
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  #5  
Unread 03-02-2008, 10:53 PM
Balldez Balldez is offline
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IMO Low Carb is dangerous nonsense. The following is from my book.


Flaws in Low Carbohydrate Diet Theory

The problem with the "low carb" theory is that insulin only turns carbohydrates into fat if you consume more calories than your body needs. Obesity causes insulin resistance, not carbohydrates.Generally low carbohydrate diets are lacking fiber and anti-oxidants. Any diet too high in protein can also adversely affect your bone strength and place strain on your kidneys.

I could find no studies on low carb diets that show that low carbohydrates diets are any more effective than any other calorie restriction diet.

The China Study, the most comprehensive nutritional study ever conducted, written by Dr. T. Colin Campbell and Thomas M. Campbell II of Cornell University in Ithica New York clearly shows the danger of diets high in animal protein. The China study looked at people in 65 rural villages in China. These people got 75% of their calories from carbohydrates in the form of plants. Their incidence for diseases such as cancers, type 2 diabetes, auto immune disease, macular degeneration, osteoporosis, obesity and heart disease was far lower.

Low carb diets, also known as ketogenic diets, deplete the healthy glycogen (the storage form of glucose) stores in your muscles and liver. Low carbohydrate diets will deplete glycogen stores and they will also cause dehydration. That is why people on low carbohydrate diets lose weight so rapidly in the first ten days or so.The problem most of that quick weight loss is muscle and water. Dieters think that they are actually losing fat and that is why "low carb" diets became so popular.

Glycogenesis, the formation of glycogen, happens in the liver and muscles when adequate quantities of carbohydrates are consumed. Because so few carbohydrates are consumed on a low carbohydrate diet very little of this happens on the South Beach or Atkins diet. Glycogenolysis,the breakdown of glycogen, occurs when glycogen is broken down to form glucose for use as fuel for the muscles.

Depletion of muscle glycogen causes fatigue and makes exercise and movement painful. Ask any body builder. Muscle fatigue increases in almost direct proportion to the rate of depletion of muscle glycogen. If you are tired and achy you probably won't want to move or exercise. lack of exercise will slow your metabolism. If you are trying to lose weight and maintain or attain or maintain good health exercise is mandatory.


Muscle glycogen depletion causes muscle atrophy (loss of muscle). This happens because muscle glycogen (broken down to glucose) is the fuel for the muscle during movement. When muscle glycogen is depleted the muscle fibers that contract, even at rest to maintain muscle tone, contract less when glycogen is not immediately available in the muscle. Depletion of muscle glycogen also causes you to exercise and move less than normal. That leads to muscle loss and the inability to maintain adequate muscle tone.

Without carbohydrates for fuel, the body uses protein (muscle) and fat. The initial phase of muscle depletion is rapid, caused by the use of easily accessed muscle protein for direct metabolism or for conversion to glucose (gluconeogenesis) for fuel. Eating extra protein does not prevent this from happening because of the caloric deficit.

If insulin levels are chronically too low which is the case in very low carbohydrate diets, catabolism (breakdown) of muscle protein increases, and protein synthesis stops.

Muscle loss causes your basal metabolic rate to slow. Muscle is more metabolically active than fat. Less muscle and muscle tone means a slower metabolism which means fewer calories burned.

When you lose muscle tone you will look like Atkins or his live counterpart Agataston
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  #6  
Unread 03-03-2008, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
could be cortisol, could be low serotonin. without blood/saliva work there' no way to tell

more important is that
a. you've noticed this occur twice
b. it would therefore be silly to continue trying to diet this way

set up a moderate carb, non-ketogenic diet and get to it
There's another possibility. Trooper could be...forgive the technical medical terminology...nuts.

Never rule out the possibility that someone who seems crazy is, in fact, crazy.

David
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  #7  
Unread 03-03-2008, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balldez View Post
IMO Low Carb is dangerous nonsense. The following is from my book.
you should read my book, hell, I'll have a copy sent out to you. 600 studies showing why everything you posted below is completely wrong

PM me your mailing address and I'll have a copy sent out


Quote:
The problem with the "low carb" theory is that insulin only turns carbohydrates into fat if you consume more calories than your body needs. Obesity causes insulin resistance, not carbohydrates.Generally low carbohydrate diets are lacking fiber and anti-oxidants. Any diet too high in protein can also adversely affect your bone strength and place strain on your kidneys.
completely incorrect, please read references newer than 1975

Quote:
I could find no studies on low carb diets that show that low carbohydrates diets are any more effective than any other calorie restriction diet.
several studies show that, in th short term they are lsightly more beneficial and in the long-term they are not. at best low carb diets are AS effective but no more.

Quote:
The China Study, the most comprehensive nutritional study ever conducted, written by Dr. T. Colin Campbell and Thomas M. Campbell II of Cornell University in Ithica New York clearly shows the danger of diets high in animal protein. The China study looked at people in 65 rural villages in China. These people got 75% of their calories from carbohydrates in the form of plants. Their incidence for diseases such as cancers, type 2 diabetes, auto immune disease, macular degeneration, osteoporosis, obesity and heart disease was far lower.
epidemiological research is, generally speaking, garbage.

Quote:
Low carb diets, also known as ketogenic diets, deplete the healthy glycogen (the storage form of glucose) stores in your muscles and liver. Low carbohydrate diets will deplete glycogen stores and they will also cause dehydration. That is why people on low carbohydrate diets lose weight so rapidly in the first ten days or so.The problem most of that quick weight loss is muscle and water. Dieters think that they are actually losing fat and that is why "low carb" diets became so popular.
if you'd read the studies, yo'ud see that both water AND fat are being lost, as long as their is a deficit. yes, water loss is increased but water is not the ONLY cause of weight loss.

Quote:
Depletion of muscle glycogen causes fatigue and makes exercise and movement painful. Ask any body builder. Muscle fatigue increases in almost direct proportion to the rate of depletion of muscle glycogen. If you are tired and achy you probably won't want to move or exercise. lack of exercise will slow your metabolism. If you are trying to lose weight and maintain or attain or maintain good health exercise is mandatory.
hence the development of cyclical ketogenic diets with aweekend carbload and targeted ketogenic diets with carbs around training, to maintain training intensity while providing whatever 'benefits' of lowcarb may occur.

Quote:
Muscle glycogen depletion causes muscle atrophy (loss of muscle). This happens because muscle glycogen (broken down to glucose) is the fuel for the muscle during movement. When muscle glycogen is depleted the muscle fibers that contract, even at rest to maintain muscle tone, contract less when glycogen is not immediately available in the muscle. Depletion of muscle glycogen also causes you to exercise and move less than normal. That leads to muscle loss and the inability to maintain adequate muscle tone.
yet ketogenic diets are shown to spare nitrogen loss once ketosis has been adapted to.

Quote:
Without carbohydrates for fuel, the body uses protein (muscle) and fat. The initial phase of muscle depletion is rapid, caused by the use of easily accessed muscle protein for direct metabolism or for conversion to glucose (gluconeogenesis) for fuel. Eating extra protein does not prevent this from happening because of the caloric deficit.
this is completely incorrect, adequate dietary protein spares body nitrogen loss, even in a deficit.

Quote:
If insulin levels are chronically too low which is the case in very low carbohydrate diets, catabolism (breakdown) of muscle protein increases, and protein synthesis stops.
yes studies show that adaptation to ketosis spares nitrogen loss

Quote:
Muscle loss causes your basal metabolic rate to slow. Muscle is more metabolically active than fat. Less muscle and muscle tone means a slower metabolism which means fewer calories burned.
yet studies show tht adaptation to ketossi spares nitrogen loss. as well, metabolci slowdown is related to many many things

given that muscle burns, at rest, 6 cal/lb, it really doesn't matter anyhow

Quote:
When you lose muscle tone you will look like Atkins or his live counterpart Agataston
nice ad hominem

Lyle
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  #8  
Unread 03-03-2008, 12:11 PM
Balldez Balldez is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
you should read my book, hell, I'll have a copy sent out to you. 600 studies showing why everything you posted below is completely wrong

PM me your mailing address and I'll have a copy sent out

Studies are one thing and reality is something else entirely. The biggest selling diets are Atkins and South Beach. Million of people did the Atkins and South Beach diet. Here is what is apparent: IT HAS NOT WORKED!

Common sense dictate that if Low Carb were safe and effective the million and millions people who used it would not be fat. The data on low carb dieting success do not support the claims. Low carb has been around for over 30 years. It did not work then and it does not work now.


completely incorrect, please read references newer than 1975

The Krebs Cycle is still the Krebs Cycle.



several studies show that, in th short term they are lsightly more beneficial and in the long-term they are not. at best low carb diets are AS effective but no more.



epidemiological research is, generally speaking, garbage.



if you'd read the studies, yo'ud see that both water AND fat are being lost, as long as their is a deficit. yes, water loss is increased but water is not the ONLY cause of weight loss.



hence the development of cyclical ketogenic diets with aweekend carbload and targeted ketogenic diets with carbs around training, to maintain training intensity while providing whatever 'benefits' of lowcarb may occur.



yet ketogenic diets are shown to spare nitrogen loss once ketosis has been adapted to.



this is completely incorrect, adequate dietary protein spares body nitrogen loss, even in a deficit.



yes studies show that adaptation to ketosis spares nitrogen loss



yet studies show tht adaptation to ketossi spares nitrogen loss. as well, metabolci slowdown is related to many many things

given that muscle burns, at rest, 6 cal/lb, it really doesn't matter anyhow



nice ad hominem

Lyle
Atkins and Agatston are charlatans. They deserve it.

There is a lot of junk science and biased studies but real proof is measured by results. Again, low carb in real life does not work.

There are two basic realities and scientific certainties that blows all diet theories away. It is called conservation of mass and thermo dynamics. Calorimeters don't lie. A calorie is a calorie. War is not peace. It is all based on energy in VS energy out. Body builders have known for a long time that Ketogenic diet cause the most muscle loss.

Here is reality;
http://www.lowcarb.ca/articles/article146.html

Low-carb diets may the risk of birth defects and childhood cancers.
Bread, pasta, breakfast cereals and orange juice — foods that are “off-limits” in a low-carb diet — are fortified with folic acid, a micronutrient essential to the neurological development of fetuses. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration currently requires that enriched grain products be fortified with the essential vitamin folic acid (the synthetic form of naturally occurring folate, or vitamin B-9, found in many leafy green vegetables, fruits and legumes). Since the fortification of grain-based foods with higher levels of folic acid, beginning in 1999, there has been a remarkable 19 percent drop in neural tube birth defects in the United States. Followers of a low-carb diet do not receive the benefits of folic acid fortification.
Low-carb/high-fat diets are not more effective for weight loss.
According to studies published in the New England Journal of Medicine and the Journal of the American Medical Association, there are no significant differences in weight loss between low-carbohydrate diets and conventional weight-loss plans. The study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (April 9, 2003) reviewed studies of low-fat diets conducted between 1966 and 2003, and found that weight loss from low-carbohydrate diets was associated with length of diet, pre-diet weight, and the number of calories consumed, but not reduced carbohydrate content.1 The study published in the New England Journal of Medicine (May 22, 2003) found greater weight loss with a low-carbohydrate diet than a conventional diet during the first six months, but no significant differences in weight were observed after one year.2
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  #9  
Unread 03-03-2008, 07:52 PM
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Default Protein and bone health

Protein with adequate calcium IMPROVES bone status

***
J Am Coll Nutr. 2005 Dec;24(6 Suppl):526S-36S. Links
Dietary protein: an essential nutrient for bone health.

Bonjour JP.
Service of Bone Diseases, University Hospital, Rue Micheli-Du-Crest, 1211 Geneva, Switzerland. Jean-Philippe.Bonjour@medecine.unige.ch.
Nutrition plays a major role in the development and maintenance of bone structures resistant to usual mechanical loadings. In addition to calcium in the presence of an adequate vitamin D supply, proteins represent a key nutrient for bone health, and thereby in the prevention of osteoporosis. In sharp opposition to experimental and clinical evidence, it has been alleged that proteins, particularly those from animal sources, might be deleterious for bone health by inducing chronic metabolic acidosis which in turn would be responsible for increased calciuria and accelerated mineral dissolution. This claim is based on an hypothesis that artificially assembles various notions, including in vitro observations on the physical-chemical property of apatite crystal, short term human studies on the calciuric response to increased protein intakes, as well as retrospective inter-ethnic comparisons on the prevalence of hip fractures. The main purpose of this review is to analyze the evidence that refutes a relation of causality between the elements of this putative patho-physiological "cascade" that purports that animal proteins are causally associated with an increased incidence of osteoporotic fractures. In contrast, many experimental and clinical published data concur to indicate that low protein intake negatively affects bone health. Thus, selective deficiency in dietary proteins causes marked deterioration in bone mass, micro architecture and strength, the hallmark of osteoporosis. In the elderly, low protein intakes are often observed in patients with hip fracture. In these patients intervention study after orthopedic management demonstrates that protein supplementation as given in the form of casein, attenuates post-fracture bone loss, increases muscles strength, reduces medical complications and hospital stay. In agreement with both experimental and clinical intervention studies, large prospective epidemiologic observations indicate that relatively high protein intakes, including those from animal sources are associated with increased bone mineral mass and reduced incidence of osteoporotic fractures. As to the increased calciuria that can be observed in response to an augmentation in either animal or vegetal proteins it can be explained by a stimulation of the intestinal calcium absorption. Dietary proteins also enhance IGF-1, a factor that exerts positive activity on skeletal development and bone formation. Consequently, dietary proteins are as essential as calcium and vitamin D for bone health and osteoporosis prevention. Furthermore, there is no consistent evidence for superiority of vegetal over animal proteins on calcium metabolism, bone loss prevention and risk reduction of fragility fractures.


****
Proc Nutr Soc. 2003 Nov;62(4):867-76. Links
Dietary protein and bone health.

Ginty F.
MRC Human Nutrition Research, The Elsie Widdowson Laboratory, Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NL, UK. Fiona.Ginty@mrc-hnr.cam.ac.uk
The effects of dietary protein on bone health are paradoxical and need to be considered in context of the age, health status and usual diet of the population. Over the last 80 years numerous studies have demonstrated that a high protein intake increases urinary Ca excretion and that on average 1 mg Ca is lost in urine for every 1 g rise in dietary protein. This relationship is primarily attributable to metabolism of S amino acids present in animal and some vegetable proteins, resulting in a greater acid load and buffering response by the skeleton. However, many of these early studies that demonstrated the calciuric effects of protein were limited by low subject numbers, methodological errors and the use of high doses of purified forms of protein. Furthermore, the cross-cultural and population studies that showed a positive association between animal-protein intake and hip fracture risk did not consider other lifestyle or dietary factors that may protect or increase the risk of fracture. The effects of protein on bone appear to be biphasic and may also depend on intake of Ca- and alkali-rich foods, such as fruit and vegetables. At low protein intakes insulin-like growth factor production is reduced, which in turn has a negative effect on Ca and phosphate metabolism, bone formation and muscle cell synthesis. Although growth and skeletal development is impaired at very low protein intakes, it is not known whether variations in protein quality affect the achievement of optimal peak bone mass in adolescents and young adults. Prospective studies in the elderly in the USA have shown that the greatest bone losses occur in elderly men and women with an average protein intake of 16-50 g/d. Although a low protein intake may be indicative of a generally poorer diet and state of health, there is a need to evaluate whether there is a lower threshold for protein intake in the elderly in Europe that may result in increased bone loss and risk of osteoporotic fracture.
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  #10  
Unread 03-03-2008, 07:54 PM
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Nutr Metab (Lond). 2005 Sep 20;2:25. Links
Dietary protein intake and renal function.

Martin WF, Armstrong LE, Rodriguez NR.
Department of Nutritional Sciences, University of Connecticut, Storrs, CT, USA. William.martin@uconn.edu
Recent trends in weight loss diets have led to a substantial increase in protein intake by individuals. As a result, the safety of habitually consuming dietary protein in excess of recommended intakes has been questioned. In particular, there is concern that high protein intake may promote renal damage by chronically increasing glomerular pressure and hyperfiltration. There is, however, a serious question as to whether there is significant evidence to support this relationship in healthy individuals. In fact, some studies suggest that hyperfiltration, the purported mechanism for renal damage, is a normal adaptative mechanism that occurs in response to several physiological conditions. This paper reviews the available evidence that increased dietary protein intake is a health concern in terms of the potential to initiate or promote renal disease. While protein restriction may be appropriate for treatment of existing kidney disease, we find no significant evidence for a detrimental effect of high protein intakes on kidney function in healthy persons after centuries of a high protein Western diet.
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