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  #1  
Unread 05-17-2017, 09:15 PM
NullHypothesis NullHypothesis is offline
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Default Muscle loss while cutting

Assume plenty of protein and strength training.

Is there any way to estimate how much mass is lost to fat vs. lean mass on a caloric deficit?

What variables do we know the relationships for (I assume bf% and deficit size are huge ones), and do we at least know ranges for the variables we can't really quantify or modify (like genetics) so that we can average the ranges or get a feel for the variances / deviations of each variable with respect to their impact on the sparing rate?

Are there any good studies or findings on this this topic that anyone can offer? (ideally on test subjects who were getting enough protein and also undergoing strength training, and getting tested with DEXA scans to more accurately determine the changes in lean and fat mass)

Last edited by NullHypothesis : 05-17-2017 at 09:41 PM.
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  #2  
Unread 05-18-2017, 05:14 PM
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Hectic Hectic is offline
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you mean since your last post a few days ago?

no i don't think any new research has been completed on this topic in the last week

why don't you ask us the real question specific to you and whatever you would intend to do with this information if it existed
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  #3  
Unread 05-18-2017, 05:26 PM
NullHypothesis NullHypothesis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectic View Post
you mean since your last post a few days ago?

no i don't think any new research has been completed on this topic in the last week

why don't you ask us the real question specific to you and whatever you would intend to do with this information if it existed
I decided to ask about cutting first, since it is probably easier than bulking, which involves more variables.

I am mostly just curious which circumstances would lead to a loss in muscle mass even if an individual were eating a lot of protein and working out with resistance training, and what parameters might be involved in that.
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  #4  
Unread 05-18-2017, 05:39 PM
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Hectic Hectic is offline
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too much deficit
not enough sleep
too much stress
too much excercise
too much chonric glygogen depletion
reducing the ammount you are lifting by too much
genetics
overtraining your muscle groups
not training each muscle group enough
getting sick
insufficient nutrients
snake bite

the variables are going to influence eachother

i suppose if everything goes wrong, you have maximum muscle loss, and if everything goes right, you have maximum muscle retention

i don't see anyone signing up for a study you you get sleep and calorie deprived to see how much muscle you can lose

Last edited by Hectic : 05-18-2017 at 05:50 PM.
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  #5  
Unread 05-18-2017, 05:46 PM
NullHypothesis NullHypothesis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hectic View Post
too much deficit
not enough sleep
too much stress
too much excercise
too much chonric glygogen depletion
reducing the ammount you are lifting by too much
genetics
overtraining your muscle groups
not training each muscle group enough
getting sick
insufficient nutrients

i suppose if everything goes wrong, you have maximum muscle loss, and if everything goes right, you have maximum muscle retention

i don't see anyone signing up for a study you you get sleep and calorie deprived to see how much muscle you can lose
I should have clarified, apologies.

I'm more interested in the effects after you've already controlled or optimized most of those variables away. As in, you're getting enough protein, you're sleeping well, you're doing resistance training a few times a week, you're not a smoker, you're not sick or neglecting micronutrients, etc.

So more interested in variables such as:

-Does bodyweight matter?
-Does bodyfat % / amount of LBM matter?
-Does the size of the deficit matter, and does it matter more relative to bodyweight, bodyfat, etc, or some other metric?
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  #6  
Unread 05-18-2017, 07:05 PM
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Hectic Hectic is offline
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Yeah the fatter you are the more you can get away with
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  #7  
Unread 05-18-2017, 07:18 PM
lylemcdonald lylemcdonald is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NullHypothesis View Post
I should have clarified, apologies.

I'm more interested in the effects after you've already controlled or optimized most of those variables away. As in, you're getting enough protein, you're sleeping well, you're doing resistance training a few times a week, you're not a smoker, you're not sick or neglecting micronutrients, etc.

So more interested in variables such as:

-Does bodyweight matter?
-Does bodyfat % / amount of LBM matter?
-Does the size of the deficit matter, and does it matter more relative to bodyweight, bodyfat, etc, or some other metric?
A better question:
Is there a reason you're too lazy to search the main site since this is all basically covered there?
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  #8  
Unread 05-18-2017, 07:21 PM
NullHypothesis NullHypothesis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcdonald View Post
A better question:
Is there a reason you're too lazy to search the main site since this is all basically covered there?
I have searched the main site; didn't see anything that put numbers to those variables in particular (in terms of what ranges and regressive frameworks we've been able to put to them at least)

e.g. I've already read

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...olism-qa.html/
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...evels-qa.html/
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...rie-rule.html/
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...equation.html/

and similar pages like this, if that's what you're referring to.

Last edited by NullHypothesis : 05-18-2017 at 08:17 PM.
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  #9  
Unread 05-18-2017, 08:54 PM
NullHypothesis NullHypothesis is offline
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Too late to edit, apologies for the double post.

For the most part, in most of these pages the general idea is that if you're doing heavy weight training and getting plenty of protein, muscle loss is "minimal" (and this is repeated in several places, both in the articles as well as the comments).

My question is how "minimal" is this exactly? 10% of the weight lost is LBM? 5%? 1%? etc -- what's the magnitude of the ballpark? What if someone has a deficit 10% under maintenance? 20%? 30%? 40%? etc.

I'm trying to get a feel for how the various combinations of variables here impact the sparing rate if we remove obvious detractors like not getting enough protein or not doing any weight training which will obviously result in a lot more LBM loss.

The closest article I saw to this was http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...olism-qa.html/ but many studies mentioned had problems (i.e. not enough protein, or no weight training, etc).

Speaking to the general case, does the data support the idea that regardless of deficit size, regardless of bf%, regardless of bodyweight -- as long as we are getting enough protein and training heavy, LBM loss is "minimal" (to whatever threshold is defined here), and if not, how does it change depending on the aforementioned variables?
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  #10  
Unread 05-18-2017, 09:04 PM
squat squat is offline
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Sounds like you're looking for a specific study that does not exist.

Do you even lift?
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