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  #1  
Unread 01-05-2013, 12:18 AM
jonny987 jonny987 is offline
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Default Post SFS - lean bulking keeping stubborn fat off

I have searched this site and googled every term I could think of and skimmed the thread titles of every page in the SFS forum so I'm genuinely sorry if this has been touched before.

Question - once at very low bf%, are there specific methods that should be taken to keep stubborn body fat in particular off? Or no matter how slim the calorie surplus, regaining stubborn fat while trying to add muscle is inevitable? Or will be a ridiculously slow, inefficient process?

Is it best to just diet down to say ~10%bf then do a simple lean-bulk until the desired LBM is achieved and then diet down again and maintain?



My thoughts:
- SF is last to lose and the first gain. Simple general dieting tips (ie small surplus + lift heavy = win) may not work when talking about low bf% (like the specific work required to lose SF)
- carb and calorie cycling around training may be useful in this situation
- yohimbine HCL might be useful if taken properly (ie fasted) to keep stubborn fat off
- continue using SFS protocols around training


Cheers
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  #2  
Unread 01-05-2013, 09:26 AM
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AmbassadorW0lfe AmbassadorW0lfe is offline
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I'd recommend researching the concept of calorie partitioning on the mainsite and here. That's going to be of greater interest to you than using the SFS strategies to stay lean. I'd also recommend UD2.0 to augment whatever information you learned from "The Stubborn Fat Solution."
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  #3  
Unread 01-05-2013, 01:31 PM
jonny987 jonny987 is offline
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Thanks mate. I have read all the articles on the main site but it's been a while now since reading that one so I'll give it another look.

I've also broadened my searching to lean-bulking in general (which has obviously given an influx of results now) but has given some insights so far:
- non-linear calorie cycling would be more suitable due to it being impossible to track a low daily surplus of say 100cal
- a good goal for a natural past the beginner stage is maybe 5lb/yr of muscle = 0.1lb / wk (0.05kg) so a better strategy may be to track strength primarily rather than scale weight
- at low bf's, hormonal issues become more of a concern which will potentially hinder partitioning


I'm more interested in attempting to keep stubborn fat off trying to use SFS protocols, but have a feeling I may be facing a variation of the 'spot reduction' dream :/
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Unread 01-05-2013, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonny987 View Post
I'm more interested in attempting to keep stubborn fat off trying to use SFS protocols, but have a feeling I may be facing a variation of the 'spot reduction' dream :/
I'm not going to outright say that this can't work because I haven't really thought it through, but the general likelihood is... eh. Lyle has a thread dedicated to EOD refeeds where he used one of the strategies on off days.

I would dare say leptin (and the resulting hormonal environment) and calorie partitioning are going to assist you far more in conjunction with proper macros than just the inclusion of SFS strategies. I'd argue SFS strategies should be a tertiary concern (especially if you're a male).
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Unread 01-05-2013, 05:23 PM
mahalin mahalin is offline
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Remember, SFS is just one way or just a tool in your toolbox to achieve your goal. SFS combined with some power training might be an effective solution, along with calorie partioning. I think to keep stubborn fat at bay, you have to exercise including both resistance exercise and aerobic exercise. Also, RFL mentions 2500 calories a week of exercise to completely prevent weight gain. Keep in mind, this is not the same as cutting 2500 calories a week from the diet.

IF/Leangains might be another thing to consider. IF with exercise or Leangains are really a form of calorie partitioning; IF by itself, would be a mild form of calorie partitioning depending on the structure. EOD refeeds are similar to IF/LG, except without the fasting (see the super long thread).

If you have RFL, the maintenance chapters might give you some guidelines.
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  #6  
Unread 01-05-2013, 07:16 PM
jonny987 jonny987 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmbassadorW0lfe View Post
I'm not going to outright say that this can't work because I haven't really thought it through, but the general likelihood is... eh. Lyle has a thread dedicated to EOD refeeds where he used one of the strategies on off days.

I would dare say leptin (and the resulting hormonal environment) and calorie partitioning are going to assist you far more in conjunction with proper macros than just the inclusion of SFS strategies. I'd argue SFS strategies should be a tertiary concern (especially if you're a male).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahalin
Remember, SFS is just one way or just a tool in your toolbox to achieve your goal. SFS combined with some power training might be an effective solution, along with calorie partioning. I think to keep stubborn fat at bay, you have to exercise including both resistance exercise and aerobic exercise. Also, RFL mentions 2500 calories a week of exercise to completely prevent weight gain. Keep in mind, this is not the same as cutting 2500 calories a week from the diet.

IF/Leangains might be another thing to consider. IF with exercise or Leangains are really a form of calorie partitioning; IF by itself, would be a mild form of calorie partitioning depending on the structure. EOD refeeds are similar to IF/LG, except without the fasting (see the super long thread).

If you have RFL, the maintenance chapters might give you some guidelines.

Thanks for the input guys and thanks again for putting me onto the calorie partitioning article AW. It looks like in terms of trying to keep fat off in general, it may be possible with something like UD2.0 but from what I've seen of that program, I really don't think I could personally maintain a program for the long-term (which is what I'd be looking for). I'll check out this EOD refeed thread.

But if we look at accepting some fat gains due to aspects of calorie partitioning outside of our control, is it possible to redistribute this fat away from stubborn areas at least? For example, as mentioned above, using say Yohimbine properly as well as IF (thanks for bringing that up mahalin). My thought is, in general, no - being at a level of bf% where you can make a sensible rate of gains (for most people) probably puts you outside the level of leanness required for such schemes to be effective. It'd be interesting to see the full text of this article as well (abstract doesn't give much)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1960007
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  #7  
Unread 01-05-2013, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahalin View Post
I think to keep stubborn fat at bay, you have to exercise including both resistance exercise and aerobic exercise.
I would daresay a EOD setup where a slight caloric surplus/carb-up on lifting days and a PSMF/relatively large caloric deficit on off days would suffice for most males.

For females, some SFS strategies may be necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahalin View Post
IF with exercise or Leangains are really a form of calorie partitioning; IF by itself, would be a mild form of calorie partitioning depending on the structure.
This is a big point of controversy and really, IF threads aren't allowed on the forums anymore. I'll say this: there is no research that confirms IF does anything beyond restrict calories for the duration of the fast. So any claims regarding increased insulin sensitivity or stubborn fat lipolysis are speculative AT BEST. So it would be faulty to credit any calorie partitioning due to IF as a strategy.

If anything, improved calorie partitioning would be due to increased insulin sensitivity as a result of hypertrophy training and glycogen depletion. As far as calorie partitioning goes, the concepts regarding glycogen depletion/supercompensation from UD2.0 as well as threads where Myles Buckley discusses bromo and other dopamine supplements will be helpful. In addition to studying up on leptin.
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Last edited by AmbassadorW0lfe : 01-05-2013 at 07:38 PM.
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  #8  
Unread 01-06-2013, 08:11 AM
abdii abdii is offline
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20-30min Fasted LISS Cardio @ 70-75% max Hz on 2-3 off days.
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  #9  
Unread 01-06-2013, 08:26 AM
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mrlakramondas mrlakramondas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonny987 View Post


Question - once at very low bf%, are there specific methods that should be taken to keep stubborn body fat in particular off? Or no matter how slim the calorie surplus, regaining stubborn fat while trying to add muscle is inevitable? Or will be a ridiculously slow, inefficient process?

Is it best to just diet down to say ~10%bf then do a simple lean-bulk until the desired LBM is achieved and then diet down again and maintain?

Specific methods may help getting rid of stubborn fat but you can't really control where you regain fat except controlling your BF% in general.
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  #10  
Unread 01-06-2013, 09:19 AM
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JustinB JustinB is offline
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"I think to keep stubborn fat at bay, you have to exercise including both resistance exercise and aerobic exercise"

I don't agree with this. I've been using the LG method for some time and have kept BF at 10%ish with no aerobic exercise. Many others have done the same. Not saying it's the only way but it is one.
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