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  #61  
Unread 05-03-2013, 06:32 PM
sarumyan sarumyan is offline
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For many, like me, working very hard and seeing the scale not moving could be very demotivating. I didn't notice any side effects, and it was very pleasant to finally break through the plato.

Metabolic damage.... Have seen many fighters in my gym go through bad water cuts, and still stay healthy and ripped afterwards. Some did balloon quickly though.

But yeah, I don't think this is 100% healthy either. Just throwing out there.
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  #62  
Unread 05-03-2013, 11:27 PM
Integral Integral is offline
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Well, when people get lean enough, and maintain it for a reasonable amount of time, I don't think this "cellular machinery" is visible at low bf levels, though that's just what I'm saying from seeing before and after pictures.

I'm really surprised that skin folds didn't change in a 30-40 lbs loss, at least in that particular area
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  #63  
Unread 05-04-2013, 07:32 PM
Integral Integral is offline
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But it might be worth worrying about as excess depleted fat cells means that excess calories have a place to go, but I think I might have learned that from you
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  #64  
Unread 05-04-2013, 07:35 PM
Integral Integral is offline
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And I don't know where I got 30-40lbs, more like 10-20 pending glycogen repletion. And that's cool that your lifts went up after loosing 20lbs
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  #65  
Unread 05-04-2013, 08:11 PM
SeanC SeanC is offline
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I think the way I'm losing fat fits very nicely to the "whoosh" theory. I have posted a plot of my daily weight since late March in my progress thread, and the sharp decreases in the graph always come on the day following 2 days of refeed, followed by a more or less steady state the next 5 days or so.
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  #66  
Unread 05-06-2013, 01:42 AM
niloluiz niloluiz is offline
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This "water imbalance" masking weight loss during crash-diet is a very annoying phenomena and also very real and persistent whenever radical approaches to fat loss is employed (by radical I mean 3 or more hours per day of cardio with VLCD diet... PMFS style, 800cal/day or less, for months in a row). That is surely a recipe for problems which usually start to show up beyond the 8th week under such routine.

All the info I could find on this issue pointed to water imbalances created by huge hormones "dislocations" in the organism. Makes sense if we consider that the deficit created under such "diets" are even bigger than simple not eating (full starvation) since usually the goal would be to burn over 1000cals per day with exercice while eating less than that. Doing that consistently week after week always create trouble (progress would be predictable and consistent for 2 or 3 months at best... then seemingly inexplicable stalls/regress would manifest).

Brad Pilon author of "Eat Stop Eat" made an audio article about this very issue pointing to some interesting research from some decades ago, which described a phenomena called "dieter's edema" and indeed one of the effects observed is shifts in the water content of the fat cells. Normally water would represent 10~14% of the fat cell volume but can be far more during this dieter's edema phenomena. He also note that while refeeds works as the usual 'cure' for that, full-blown fasts also can have the same effect (he then suggests using IF strategy for weight-loss in the first place to sidestep this problem altogether);

I would paste some excerpts of that article here but that would require his approval since it's bundle material that came with his ESE book. But there are some references about this issue and overall seems like a pretty well documented phenomena.
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  #67  
Unread 05-06-2013, 07:09 AM
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lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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Screw Brad Pilon. I was writing about this 10 years before he had written his stupid little books. They all just stole these ideas from me.
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  #68  
Unread 05-06-2013, 09:02 AM
Integral Integral is offline
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Consuming nothing but water during fasting is just a way of not consuming any minerals, i.e. sodium or potassium, of course you're going to drop water weight, just silly
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  #69  
Unread 05-07-2013, 01:19 PM
niloluiz niloluiz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
Screw Brad Pilon. I was writing about this 10 years before he had written his stupid little books. They all just stole these ideas from me.
Hehe

The quantity and quality of information compiled in this site and your books are unmatched by the competition indeed. I'm yet to see anyone coming even closer.

Recently I stumbled into Kiefer's site... what a difference. That guy is an online marketeer and as far as science goes he is just a hack. He loves to throw lots of references around to support his claims(I guess it's fashion nowadays to do that lol) but he is no better than... Taubes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Integral View Post
Consuming nothing but water during fasting is just a way of not consuming any minerals, i.e. sodium or potassium, of course you're going to drop water weight, just silly
Different things. In that context of starvation edema (the same being discussed on this topic) sodium intake or any potential electrolyte imbalance was looked by research as potential cause and it's not related.

I can confirm this by first hand experience.... this phenomena will happen even if sodium intake is for all practical purposes zero. And after this issue is manifest, just cutting sodium, cutting water and throwing furosemide on top won't make for the weight caused by that.

Funny thing is, that guy talking about Epsom Salt baths probably was into something. In the end this is just an obscure and fringe physiologic aspect of dieting, that generally manifests with more radical approaches that nobody in the field would advocate/prescribe/recommend anyway so I guess this issue won't get any more attention than it already has.
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  #70  
Unread 05-20-2013, 05:10 PM
castanofitness castanofitness is offline
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Idk why but I always look leaner the day before carbload instead of the day after carbload that might be a stupid question but I remember in UD2 u said u should look lean the day aftercarbload
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