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  #31  
Unread 10-27-2010, 09:30 AM
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JamesKrieger JamesKrieger is offline
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Originally Posted by Patrick N View Post
Regarding my argument with M. Levac, an animal study would be accepted by him. But I'm looking for one with zero carbs and zero proteins, only fats. Of course, this could not be sustained for too long. He is convinced that it is impossible to grow fatter by eating only fats. I expect that on an all-fat diet, while creating a caloric surplus, you are going to lose lean tissue and increase your fat store. He says that's impossible since nothing would stimulate the release of insulin.

If I can show him direct evidence of this. I would make real inroads. But so far I did not find such a paper.
Animals don't last long on a protein-free diet...it would cause sever malnutrition and eventually death. This is why the condition of a "fat-only" diet is ridiculous. And even on a fat-only diet, there is still some insulin secretion (there is always a certain basal level of insulin secretion other than in a type I diabetic).
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  #32  
Unread 10-27-2010, 09:42 AM
jacegil jacegil is offline
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@Uchi-mata I'm not quite sure I understand what you're trying to convey here. Who's "you"? Are you saying they'd drop a set of beliefs/dogmas to embrace other set of beliefs/dogmas? Or they're like sheep and need to be enticed to follow the right "leader"?
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  #33  
Unread 10-27-2010, 09:56 AM
Patrick N Patrick N is offline
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Originally Posted by JamesKrieger View Post
Animals don't last long on a protein-free diet...it would cause sever malnutrition and eventually death. This is why the condition of a "fat-only" diet is ridiculous. And even on a fat-only diet, there is still some insulin secretion (there is always a certain basal level of insulin secretion other than in a type I diabetic).
Yes I know that. Still if I could find a paper with such an experiment showing that their weight increases (even with lean tissue loss), that would really shut the ZeroCarbers up. Even people like Charles Washington would have to face the truth.

They're saying they have anecdotal "evidence" that humans can eat up to 8000 kcals per day on an all-fat diet without gaining weight. I figure that since they cannot do this for too long, they lose lots of water (being keto) and some lean tissue enough to compensate the gain in fat and so the weight stays the same.
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  #34  
Unread 10-27-2010, 10:26 AM
jacegil jacegil is offline
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8000 kcal of fat everyday for like 3 weeks, I know the initial woosh would easily mask fat gain, but apart from that, could muscle loss offset about 1.5 pounds of new stored fat everyday (assuming maintenance of 2700 kcal or so)? A pound of muscle is ~30% protein, so 125g of pro, so if the person eating 2 pounds of butter uses up 1.5 lbs of muscle's worth of amino acids/day, the weight on the scale won't budge, but caliper measures will big time (major body recomposition would occur at same weight). Which begs the question, who in their right mind would eat nothing but 2 pounds of butter everyday for 3 weeks? Or about 1 L of "healthy" flaxseed oil?

Last edited by jacegil : 10-27-2010 at 10:30 AM.
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  #35  
Unread 10-27-2010, 10:39 AM
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Uchi-mata Uchi-mata is offline
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Originally Posted by jacegil View Post
@Uchi-mata I'm not quite sure I understand what you're trying to convey here. Who's "you"? Are you saying they'd drop a set of beliefs/dogmas to embrace other set of beliefs/dogmas? Or they're like sheep and need to be enticed to follow the right "leader"?
"You" are everybody in discussion with the prophets of irrationality. Most on this tread agrees, I think, that its impossible to convert the prophets or the hardcore followers. But YOU, as a man of rationality can perhaps by means of solid arguments and a little rethoric's reach some of the less dogmatic "fans". When I used the word "lure" I was a little sarcastic, but the goal must be to convince them to the way of science instead of the path of irrationality.

But sometimes you must lure some of the "sheeps" with rethoric's first and educate and convince them later. Even scientists uses rethorics...
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  #36  
Unread 10-27-2010, 02:11 PM
Patrick N Patrick N is offline
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Maybe this one could be useful, but I don't have access to the full text.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...5&searchtype=a
Quote:
A ketogenic effect of force-feeding
P. A. Mayes

Division of Biochemistry, Royal Veterinary College, London, UK
Received 21 May 1962.
Available online 4 November 2002.

Abstract

The ketonaemia of rats consuming an all-fat diet, persisted in animals fed subcalorific amounts but became reduced or absent when sufficient fat was consumed to satisfy the calorific requirement.1 Further experiments were envisaged in which it was desirable to force-feed the fat diet. This necessitated a separate investigation to ascertain whether force-feeding had any extra effects on ketogenesis.
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  #37  
Unread 10-27-2010, 02:39 PM
thombrogan thombrogan is offline
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I couldn't find any studies involving humans and all-fat diets.

My pubmed-fu is inadequate.

Mass-movements appeal to fanatics because of the fanatics' tendency towards all-or-nothing thinking and desire to hand over responsibility (praise and blame) to external forces. So a jogging fatphobe and a superslowing lowcarber can usually change places with ease and many do.

It's easier to get a fanatic to change horses in midstream than to have him or her think rationally in general and apply that same rationality towards goal-directed behavior.
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  #38  
Unread 10-27-2010, 08:16 PM
Patrick N Patrick N is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
http://www.why-low-carb-diets-work.c...ight-loss.html

What this tells us is that fat tissue is controlled not by calories but by hormones and enzymes. If we affect these, we affect fat accumulation. The more we affect these, the more fat we accumulate. When we eat carbohydrate, we affect insulin. The more carbohydrate we eat, the more we affect insulin. When insulin rises, the balance tends to promote fat accumulation. When insulin drops, the balance tends to promote fat release.

Whatever affects these hormones and enzymes will affect fat accumulation one way or another. Bodybuilders inject growth hormone to help them shed fat faster than just cutting calories or cutting carbs. They use all kinds of drugs like clenbuterol, epinephrine and DNP to help them shed fat quicker. That's because each of these drugs act either directly or indirectly on fat tissue itself. For example, clenbuterol is a beta agonist. This means when it connects to fat cells, it tells them to release fat. Similarly, when insulin connects to fat cells, it tells them to stop releasing fat, to stop oxidizing fat, to start uptaking glucose, to start oxidizing glucose, to start making glycerol, and to start making triglycerides for storage. This happens at the cellular level. How much food we eat pretty much has no effect on this. It's what food we eat that has an effect. Just like it's what drugs we take that has an effect. Some drugs don't have any effect while some drugs have a significant effect. Some foods have barely any effect while other foods have a significant effect.

It's much more complex than just how much insulin we secrete. For example, protein also stimulates insulin but does not make blood glucose rise. The rise in blood glucose is also one essential component of fat accumulation due to the fact that fat cells must oxidize glucose to produce glycerol to bind fatty acids into triglycerides for storage. But the simplest explanation is that carbohydrate drives insulin drives fat accumulation.
<sigh> How can I argue against such awesomeness.

I'm starting to believe what Lyle said about how uncommon it is to successfully bring back someone who is this deep.
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  #39  
Unread 10-27-2010, 09:12 PM
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JamesKrieger JamesKrieger is offline
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Originally Posted by Patrick N View Post
<sigh> How can I argue against such awesomeness.

I'm starting to believe what Lyle said about how uncommon it is to successfully bring back someone who is this deep.
Apparently he doesn't understand the process of glyceroneogenesis and the fact that glucose isn't needed to produce glycerol.

I'm also wondering how he explains why people who consume dairy along with regular carbohydrate don't gain weight.
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  #40  
Unread 10-27-2010, 11:20 PM
BaronSky BaronSky is offline
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Apparently he doesn't understand the process of glyceroneogenesis and the fact that glucose isn't needed to produce glycerol.
Well, he was told about it in the "Low Carb Talibans" discussion but I guess he forgot or something.
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