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  #1  
Unread 04-21-2012, 03:09 PM
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Dean407 Dean407 is offline
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Default Best exercises for running performance?

So, I have gotten my weekly mileage up to 30-40. Have done around 7 5K's and completed my first half marathon last month on my 41st Bday.

I'm now 190lbs. Will be going down to high 170's or low 180's.

My aerobic stamina has increased a good bit in the last couple months, but now my legs are holding me back.

I tend to think I am genetically far more suited to sprinting as opposed to distance running. However, there are no races less than 5K's that I have seen within 2hrs of where I live.

I have read several of the most popular books on running, but wanted to post here to get perhaps a different perspective.

I stopped doing all weight based training many months ago. I was simply too tired after ramping up my running.

I started doing some hill sprints a couple weeks ago on the only "hill" I have within 1hr40min...which is more of a gradual grade than a hill...but it's all I have.

I've seen Lyle comment a few times how runners can benefit from weight training.

My question is how to incorporate DL's and leg press/single leg press (I have no area to do squats other than a smith machine) into a 30+mi week of running?

I attempted to do some light DL's today after a short run, but I did some solid speed work yesterday. My muscles were too strained already.

I have at least 1 long run day a week at 10-13.1 miles, 1 speed day, 1 or 2 recovery runs and one run 6-8mi which is a progression run or tempo run.

Give or take on the above- I am flexible on my running routine besides the 1 long day and 1 speed day.

I seem to be sore/fatigued for a couple days after long run and 2-3 days after speed work. Nothing bad really, just general muscle fatigue.

Above all else I do not want to get injured again. I feel I have finally gotten a hold on my limits of running and will lean on the side of a bit too conservative rather than a bit too aggressive with training these days.

I have more or less switched to mostly body weight stuff for upper body.

Soooo...with all the above what sort of program is good for lower body?

I prefer higher weight/lower rep stuff in general for weight training, but am willing to listen.

After my next half marathon which is 1 month from now, I want to focus on my 5K times.

My past 5K's were 27:08 and my half was 2hrs 20min, but I just wanted to finish it. Left the course to use the bathroom and was coming off an injuring so didn't push it.

Based on recent training my 5K race time is probably 25min or in the high 24's.

When I was 31 I got my DL up to 405lbs with a BW of 185. Now at 41, I'd like to get close to that, though unsure if I can. It's in the back of my mind though.

Sorry to ramble- I know I went off on a few tangents.
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  #2  
Unread 04-21-2012, 03:35 PM
Bonham Bonham is offline
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IMO, Your best bet is to just run and leave the weights for your "off" season.
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  #3  
Unread 04-21-2012, 03:43 PM
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Running is the best exercise for running performance.
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Unread 04-21-2012, 08:03 PM
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Lyle,

So, instead of doing any lower body weight stuff you recommend all running?

I do like Brad Hudson's approach in the "Run Faster from the 5K to the Marathon: How to Be Your Own Best Coach" book.

He does not suggest any weight cross training, but pushes hill training instead.

To be honest, after my first time doing hill sprints it felt like I did a bunch of DL's.

So, a casual competitive runner would do better just focusing on the running and getting as lean as possible, huh?
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Unread 04-21-2012, 09:18 PM
FutureisNow FutureisNow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean407 View Post
Lyle,

So, instead of doing any lower body weight stuff you recommend all running?

I do like Brad Hudson's approach in the "Run Faster from the 5K to the Marathon: How to Be Your Own Best Coach" book.

He does not suggest any weight cross training, but pushes hill training instead.

To be honest, after my first time doing hill sprints it felt like I did a bunch of DL's.

So, a casual competitive runner would do better just focusing on the running and getting as lean as possible, huh?
I was going to mention hills as well. Though the way I've seen them explained they are more like "hill bounding" or leaping. Slower, long strides, go deep, big pushoff, like explosive lunges. Normally running uphill your stride shortens but not for this. It becomes something like plyometics done in a running form. Various plyometics have been shown to improve run times.
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Unread 04-22-2012, 09:17 AM
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Dean407 Dean407 is offline
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Guess I'll just make the most out of the one incline I have in the area.

Have to state that with the few DL's I did yesterday 10x135 then 5x195...I have areas very sore that haven't been in many months. Especially near the groin/pelvis.
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Unread 04-25-2012, 07:55 AM
mprevost mprevost is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean407 View Post
Lyle,

So, instead of doing any lower body weight stuff you recommend all running?

I do like Brad Hudson's approach in the "Run Faster from the 5K to the Marathon: How to Be Your Own Best Coach" book.

He does not suggest any weight cross training, but pushes hill training instead.

To be honest, after my first time doing hill sprints it felt like I did a bunch of DL's.

So, a casual competitive runner would do better just focusing on the running and getting as lean as possible, huh?
You are stil a pretty slow runner for that mileage. Your biggest problem is that you are too heavy. Looking for the answer in the weight room is looking in the wrong place. Get leaner and continue to run CONSISTENTLY, all year. WHen you are putting up back to back 30-40 mile weeks for MONTHS, consider adding in some intensity. Building endurance is easy, building speed takes time, years for some people.
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  #8  
Unread 04-25-2012, 08:04 AM
mprevost mprevost is offline
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Default RUnning Program

In looking at your running program, you are following a program designed for a more advanced runner. I don't see the need for any speed days for you yet. Forget hill sprints. I would rather see a MUCH simpler approach, maybe 5 sessions of 5-8 miles, at a steady pace. If you do that CONSISTENTLY for a year, you will be ready for an intermediate program. I don't think you are ready yet. It is a mistake for a beginner to jump into more advanced programs. Everybody is always in such a hurry to get fast. If you do this right, you will progressively get faster with no injuiries and you will be much faster a year from now. Otherwise, you will do what 90% of beginner runners do, which is a continual cycle of zero training, overtraining, injury, recovery, overtraining ect....for years. Taking a more long-term approach will pay off. At 40 years old, I was running 5Ks in under 20 minutes at 175 lbs on nothing but 4 runs per week of 8 miles, steady, not hard. I could run 1.5 miles in 8:45, and I did not feel that I was ready for any speed work or sprint type of training. I still had alot of speed to develop from my simple training program. Also, get yourself a running GPS so you are not bullI need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post.ting yourself on training paces. It helps.
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Unread 04-26-2012, 11:06 AM
tehmackdaddy tehmackdaddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mprevost View Post
In looking at your running program, you are following a program designed for a more advanced runner. I don't see the need for any speed days for you yet. Forget hill sprints. I would rather see a MUCH simpler approach, maybe 5 sessions of 5-8 miles, at a steady pace. If you do that CONSISTENTLY for a year, you will be ready for an intermediate program. I don't think you are ready yet. It is a mistake for a beginner to jump into more advanced programs. Everybody is always in such a hurry to get fast. If you do this right, you will progressively get faster with no injuiries and you will be much faster a year from now. Otherwise, you will do what 90% of beginner runners do, which is a continual cycle of zero training, overtraining, injury, recovery, overtraining ect....for years. Taking a more long-term approach will pay off. At 40 years old, I was running 5Ks in under 20 minutes at 175 lbs on nothing but 4 runs per week of 8 miles, steady, not hard. I could run 1.5 miles in 8:45, and I did not feel that I was ready for any speed work or sprint type of training. I still had alot of speed to develop from my simple training program. Also, get yourself a running GPS so you are not bullI need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post.ting yourself on training paces. It helps.
Interesting post to me since recently I've been looking into increasing endurance mostly relative to aerobic capacity. What I keep reading is to build the aerobic base before HIIT or sprinting is attempted, which, of course, goes against both what the current trend in exercise is (HIIT for fat loss and VO2 MAX, Bro!!!) and also my own (probably wrong) instinct based partly in my track and field background (I was a short distance/field event athlete). It's also difficult to accept as someone who plays basketball, soccer, and softball recreationally, though I realize I may be a victim of listening to faulty advice from my own brain and not to science based advice from those more knowledgeable. On its surface it makes sense to train sprinting and explosive movements to have the carry over to sports, but as I stated, that surface logic may be faulty and not supported by more detailed scientific analysis.

As many serious trainers do, I segment my calendar into specific periods: growth, fat loss, or some other major goal. During these macro-cycles I have gotten into the habit of writing down my goals in order of priority. Running will never be at the top of that list because I am unwilling to sacrifice muscle mass to maximize running performance. However, as I have started running some shorter events and "adventure" races (10k or less), I'm definitely interested in figuring out how to intelligently decrease my run times while maintaining my muscle. I enjoy sprint days, but am willing to sacrifice them for a given period of time if it truly is beneficial. Perhaps I should drop my short distance track workouts as well, which mostly consist of a variety of 200s, 400s, and 800s at a pace faster than long distance running, but I enjoy those workouts as well. And I don't really enjoy the distance running, so it's a bit of a pill to swallow if I have to cut out everything but endurance work.

Oh well. Maybe I DO need to drop everything but the endurance conditioning for a few months to a year, as you suggest and I have found other support for. I did happen upon this suggestion. Summed up:

Quote:
  • Subtract your age from 180 (this is the Maximum Aerobic HR)
  • Warm-Up for 10-15 minutes at a heart rate of 10-20 beats below your Max aerobic HR.
  • Exercise at an intensity 0-10 beats below your max aerobic heart rate, but not over.
  • Cool-Down for 10-15 minutes at a HR similar to the warm-up, but now with decreasing intensity.
“When Can I Exercise Harder?”

You can begin to add anaerobic activity when your maximum aerobic function levels off, or “plateaus”. This is determined by your Maximum Aerobic Function Test (MAF). In the following example, it is when this runner went through month #7 and month #8 with no improvement in their mile split, at the same consistent (135) HR. So in month #9, this person would start to add in some anaerobic workouts – see examples below.

THE MAXIMUM AEROBIC FUNCTION TEST
MONTH HEART RATE MAF (min/mile)
1 135 9:05
2 135 8:48
3 135 8:22
4 135 8:05
5 135 8:00
6 135 7:40
7 135 7:24
8 135 7:24
9 >135 ANAEROBIC
I'm sure someone else has coined this term, but I call this type of training "Aerobic Base Conditioning" or ABC. As I keep looking for data, though, I keep finding this method typically is supported by and applied to those on the extreme that I am not a part of: either serious cyclists or serious runners. So I'm not sure if this approach applies to me as "best."

Thanks for your post and any replies in advance.
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Unread 04-26-2012, 11:41 AM
Not Sure Not Sure is offline
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The quoted suggestion has a lot of problems; the first two that come to mind are:
  1. maximum heart rate has lots of individual variance
  2. a particular individual's heart rate during activity has a lot of variance
Basing a program on heart rate is a poor idea.

You wanna run 10K or shorter races, find a 10K racer's program. Something like FIRST from Furman or something from CoolRunnings. Strip it of the junk miles and effluvia and run the quality workouts, there'll be only 2-4 of those a week in any running program. Then use the other 1-3 days a week to intelligently program some strength training in order to maintain your current muscle base (if you want to).

Something like (maybe not exactly like) Tues/Fri/Sat for running workouts (long run on Saturday) and Mon/Thu for strength workouts (two different full-body splits). Or expand it to a rolling EOD schedule like this:

Strength (alternate workouts A/B)
Day off
Running (alternate workout types A/B/C)
Day off

Use hill work sparingly. Consider treadmill repeats of 400m on inclines instead of traditional hill sprints.
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