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  #11  
Unread 02-08-2009, 08:49 AM
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lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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Rate coding is simply the rate at which neural signals are sent from the brain to the muscles. As rate coding increases (up to a point), force output goes up.

What is confusing?

And I'm not talking about forced negatives or anything of that sort, that's jsut a non-sequitur.

But, IMO and IME, rep speed will slow long before you're very close to failure. If you stopped every set at that point, you wouldn't get as much fatigue. UNLESS you did a bunch of mini sets with short rest. Which is what Blade does with Myo-Reps. But it's not the only way to train for growth.
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  #12  
Unread 02-08-2009, 08:55 AM
Espi Espi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
What is confusing?
This:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade View Post
More and more research points to both fiber recruitment and rate coding are important when subjecting the muscle to tension overload, so working closer to - but not actually hitting failure - is recommended. Once rep speed drops, terminate the set. You may maintain a high level of MVC/rate coding by limiting rest periods and doing shorter sets on subsequent sets after that first "activation" set.

There is both a minimum threshold volume, and optimal range (obviously), but more importantly a maximum volume where several events take place which will inhibit an optimal growth response and prolong recovery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
And I'm not talking about forced negatives or anything of that sort, that's jsut a non-sequitur.

But, IMO and IME, rep speed will slow long before you're very close to failure. If you stopped every set at that point, you wouldn't get as much fatigue. UNLESS you did a bunch of mini sets with short rest. Which is what Blade does with Myo-Reps. But it's not the only way to train for growth.
It's sometimes hard to choose between the methods that are used by (juiced) bodybuilders and their followers , which invariably means forced negatives etc. etc. and the more science-oriented method, where followers even follow the opposite approach and do singles up to triples with submaximal weights. That approach just seems weird if you want hypertrophy. Unless rest time is kept to a minimum (like with Myo-Reps and Max-Stim?)
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  #13  
Unread 02-08-2009, 09:26 AM
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lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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Look, nobody gives a I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post. what juiced bodybuilders do. Stop bringing them up, it's an irrelevant non-sequitur and strawman as NOBODY but you is talking about it.

Blade works with naturals, so have I. His and my disagreements are always minor points and this is no difference. His way works and so does mine. And both have their application depending on the situation (e.g. look at the article on various training philsophies on the main site).

I don't do forced negateives with people. Ever.

I rarely take people to positive failure. Rarely is NOT the same as ever. There are times I think going to failure is absolutely the thing to do. And most of the time it's not. But it just depends.

I do not agree that the set should be stopped when bar speed slows for the reason I already stated.

Unnerstand or are you still confused?
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  #14  
Unread 02-08-2009, 10:16 AM
steviekm3 steviekm3 is offline
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Does the body part matter for how many reps ? Could different muscles have varying amounts of fast/slow twitch fiber and this could make the number of reps be different.

For example you often hear people doing more reps for calves for example.
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  #15  
Unread 02-08-2009, 10:29 AM
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lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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That idea has been suggested, I've never seen anything to support it

Most people do higher reps for calves per set b/c the range of motion is short and most people bounce and don't use their muscle anyhow.

They have to do '30 reps' because each rep is done with poor quality. This is why skinny guys can bounce the stack all day long; they aren't actually using any muscular effort.

If you do calves the way I recommend (explosive concentric, slow eccentric, 2-4 second pause at the bottom), you can work them in teh same rep ranges as everything else.

And even if different muscles are different fiber types, here's the reality: Type I fibers don't grow much. Targeting them is a losing proposition. Focus on the Type II fibers which actually have growth potential. That means using the parameters laid out in this article.
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  #16  
Unread 02-08-2009, 12:07 PM
Blade Blade is offline
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Ok, let me modify/clarify that to: once rep speed drops significantly, not at the first sign of fatigue (the very first rep will be slow when you're lifting heavy loads).

There must be a balance between MVC/rate coding and fatigue to be able to get sufficient volume in, don't just go for fatigue for the sake of it, so yeah - Lyle and I may disagree on that, but of course it's a matter of degree and application as he mentions.
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  #17  
Unread 02-08-2009, 12:15 PM
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lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade View Post
Ok, let me modify/clarify that to: once rep speed drops significantly, not at the first sign of fatigue (the very first rep will be slow when you're lifting heavy loads).
Amazing how a single word can change the disagreement completely.

I don't like people to grind either, invariably it causes too much fatigue and compromises how many sets they can get. This is the fallacy of both the HIT and the HG philosophy.

Quote:
There must be a balance between MVC/rate coding and fatigue to be able to get sufficient volume in, don't just go for fatigue for the sake of it, so yeah - Lyle and I may disagree on that, but of course it's a matter of degree and application as he mentions.
as with the other thread, there is no disagreement now that you've qualified what you meant (e.g. actually written what you meant specifically instead of with easily confusing vagaries).

I don't take people to slow grindy failure EVER unless it's the final set of the workout (or it's performance related and they need to learn how to grind to make a lift). It accomplishes nothing but excessive neural fatigue IMO without signficantly increasing hte growht stimulus (and it will hurt the growth stimulus if it compromises total volume).

That is a far different statement tahn 'stop when the bar slows'. Because the rider 'significantly' changes Blade's original statement SIGNIFICANTLY.

Get it, do you see what I did there?

But for hypetrophy purposes, never. Ok, rarely enough to be never at this point. I cna't think of an exception to that right now
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  #18  
Unread 02-08-2009, 12:28 PM
Blade Blade is offline
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Ok, I guess I have to start making qualifiers into every post from now on then. I was making a quick post and didn't foresee any problems with that statement.

The problem is that rep speed is both psychological (some slow down at first sign of fatigue) and subjective (what is "significantly" ?), but alright - let's say a 10-15% drop in rep speed.

Landon Evans did some experiments with a Tendo unit which seemed to correlate well with that number when he tried Myo-reps and an RPE scale.

Wernbom saw huge spikes on EMG, similar to 85%+ loads using lighter loads (I believe it was about 15-20RM) and a rest-pause/Myo-rep scheme. Some other data is showing rate coding being inhibited once you push into failure land.
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  #19  
Unread 02-08-2009, 12:34 PM
PeyZS PeyZS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade View Post
Ok, let me modify/clarify that to: once rep speed drops significantly, not at the first sign of fatigue (the very first rep will be slow when you're lifting heavy loads).

There must be a balance between MVC/rate coding and fatigue to be able to get sufficient volume in, don't just go for fatigue for the sake of it, so yeah - Lyle and I may disagree on that, but of course it's a matter of degree and application as he mentions.
For my own confused application of myo reps, I terminate the activation set when I feel failure 1-2 reps away

I tend to err on the side of getting to close to failure rather than stay too far away from it, as I've mentioned before I suck at adding reps vs adding weight, and the psychological thing has sabotaged me many a time (in other words as you guys pointed out, rep speed will sometimes slow for me way before I'm anywhere near 1) failure 2) inability to add more weight and complete a set within the same rep range
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  #20  
Unread 02-08-2009, 12:34 PM
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lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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It's all up to you, do you want to actually write what you mean about the topic, or sound like Chad Waterbury and get your panties all twisted when I disagree with WHAT YOU ACTUALLY SAID?

Because, see, I can't read minds and you're not my girlfriend, so if you say X I'm going to respond to literally what X was. If that's not what you mean, that's not my problem: either write more clearly or stop getting annoyed when I respond to what you literally said.

And if you then qualify your statement with something that changes SIGNIFICANTLY what you actually wrote, then you've just wasted both of our times.
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