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  #21  
Unread 02-08-2009, 12:35 PM
lylemcd's Avatar
lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeyZS View Post
For my own confused application of myo reps, I terminate the activation set when I feel failure 1-2 reps away
And this is about where I stop folks doing multiple sets. IF I want repeat sets of 8, the first set will stop when I think they are about 1-2 reps from failure.

How do I know when they are this close? By being VERY good at what I do. I watch for things like changing rep speed and overall effort an I'm usually very close to knowing where someone is relative to failure in a set. And unless I have a very specific and very good reasons to take them beyond that point, I'll tell them to stop and save it for the next set.
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  #22  
Unread 02-08-2009, 12:50 PM
Blade Blade is offline
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Ok but I did mean "noticeably" instead of "significantly"...ffs it's a subjective measure, hence why I use RPE scales. I shouldn't have to write a whole damn article qualifying every word I say whenever I post on your forum so it won't end up in this waste of time. I guess I'm assuming that you have read my earlier posts and/or articles, so I don't have to repeat myself every time I'm making a quick comment in a thread. Context.

Now I know why you've adopted the writing style in your latest books of overexplaining everything down to the very tiniest detail, guess I should learn from that.

Comparing me to Waterbury is quite an insult, given what you've said about him earlier. I don't think I fit that description at all, and honestly you're out of line here.

You're very good at what you do, but you're also very good at misrepresenting what other people say sometimes, re: the eat-when-hungry argument.
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  #23  
Unread 02-08-2009, 12:59 PM
PeyZS PeyZS is offline
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Blade I've been meaning to ask you this...

IMU in the Wenborn study it was found that a growth stimulus could be achieved with a 15 rep set at 50% 1RM *after* the muscle group had already been activated and stimulated with a heavier load. this is not a function of fatigue as a hypertrophic stimulus, but rather an already activated/recruited set of muscle fibers being more sensitive to growth

so is this why when loads get heavy, you recommend shifting the weight down only a few lbs and doing another rest pause series after R.P. 2 or 10 reps (whatever self reg method we're using), instead of dropping down to a genuinely light weight (50% RM) and cranking out a fatigue set?

e.g. its not fatigue were after, so using the heaviest possible weight and still being able to crank out another rest pause series will give a greater growth response?
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  #24  
Unread 02-08-2009, 01:13 PM
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lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade View Post
Ok but I did mean "noticeably" instead of "significantly"...ffs it's a subjective measure, hence why I use RPE scales. I shouldn't have to write a whole damn article qualifying every word I say whenever I post on your forum so it won't end up in this waste of time. I guess I'm assuming that you have read my earlier posts and/or articles, so I don't have to repeat myself every time I'm making a quick comment in a thread. Context.

Now I know why you've adopted the writing style in your latest books of overexplaining everything down to the very tiniest detail, guess I should learn from that.

Comparing me to Waterbury is quite an insult, given what you've said about him earlier. I don't think I fit that description at all, and honestly you're out of line here.

You're very good at what you do, but you're also very good at misrepresenting what other people say sometimes, re: the eat-when-hungry argument.
You wrote and I quote
"Once rep speed drops, terminate the set"

Does that leave any room for interpretation or does it mean exactly what it says? It's the latter as everyone will agree.

And I took issue with it. Becasue that statement, which is identical to what Waterbury has written is not only wrong but completely moronic.

And THEN you added a word that completely changes what that sentence means. And now there is no disagreement.

But instead of letting it go, you're acting like a spoiled little brat, trying to make it about me. like you did in the other thread wehere there was NO DISAGREEMENT AT ALL. Yet you insisted on making there be one.

Because what I said was exactly clear. And what you thought I said was completely different.

See the problem here, Blade. It's all yours. I wrote what I meant, I mean what I write, I take what others write at face value; if they change it then I'll address what they chaned it too.

Take responsibility for yoru actions instead of trying to shift the blame like the rest of the weak minded on the internet, friend, it will keep you from looking so foolish.

Basically, you had two options after changing what you wrote

1. Say "Ok, I msi wrote, this is what I meant" Andhten I go "Yup, no disagreement"
2. Do what you're doing now which is acting like a child who got caught and is trying to both make excuses (this is what I meant) and shift the blame (by attacking me).

#2 is bullI need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post., buddy. Man up and just admit that you misspoke. YOur'e pulling a Carl/Clubeelite from the glute bridge thread right now. Plain and simple.
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  #25  
Unread 02-08-2009, 01:23 PM
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lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeyZS View Post
Blade I've been meaning to ask you this...

IMU in the Wenborn study it was found that a growth stimulus could be achieved with a 15 rep set at 50% 1RM *after* the muscle group had already been activated and stimulated with a heavier load. this is not a function of fatigue as a hypertrophic stimulus, but rather an already activated/recruited set of muscle fibers being more sensitive to growth

so is this why when loads get heavy, you recommend shifting the weight down only a few lbs and doing another rest pause series after R.P. 2 or 10 reps (whatever self reg method we're using), instead of dropping down to a genuinely light weight (50% RM) and cranking out a fatigue set?

e.g. its not fatigue were after, so using the heaviest possible weight and still being able to crank out another rest pause series will give a greater growth response?
I think blade is trying to stay on the higher end of the tension vs. fatigue curve but I should probably let him explain to avoid misrepresenting what he means.

If you drop poundage a bit, you get more of a tension overload and yu can accumulate fatigue with subsequent drops. drop it way down and crank out reps, and it's more fatigue oriented.

That is if you graphed average tension for his myo rep drop set vs what you're describing, you get the same total volume/fatigue/metabolic work (as a function of all of the mini sets) but with a higher average tension (eitheras load on bar/%MVIC or what have you). I'd expect his approach to generate better growth.

That said, I have done things like

4-6 rep set near failure -> short rest -> set of 10-12 reps with a lighter weight with seemingly good sucess. Probably work better with no rest at all but that hurts to much.
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  #26  
Unread 02-08-2009, 01:35 PM
PeyZS PeyZS is offline
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I've tried to keep in mind the balance in your generic bulk between fatigue and tension in this context

so when working with heavy loads what I'll do sometimes is max stim/myo rep up at about 15 (working with a 5 RM)

rest 45 secs or so

then belt out either:

1) a set of 10-12 with ~12 RM

which seems to be cool because say you did this for flat bench and then incline bench, you'd get 50 reps total (magic number ding ding ding), and a split of 30 heavy I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post. reps plus 20 more fatigue oriented reps (*kinda* like your bulk would produce practiced normally)

2) another rest pause set alla blade but with ~7 RM

so I guess my post was motivated by trying to assess the difference between the two approaches, but you said it, #2 stays more on the tension side of things (though you could accumulate fatigue by doing multiple drops), #1 on the fatigue side of things...
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  #27  
Unread 02-08-2009, 01:44 PM
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lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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As stated, both clearly work.

Which is 'better' depends on the person and the context.

With someone willing to suffer and who will keep the quality of the reps good, myo-reps/DC style training is more time efficient, you get the same growth stimulus for about half the total volume.

For someone without that pain tolerance, or who's form goes down the toilet under conditions of fatigue (which is a lot more people than most realize), I'd be more inclined to use straight sets. Even that can depend on things like exercise choice. form shouldn't fall apart on the hammer incline chest press and you can take anybody through a proper myo-rep/DC drop set without problems. Barbell back squat on the other hand.....

When I was training Sarah with some specific growth goals,we often did a mix of training types. Straight sets and higher volume for some stuff, myo-rep or drop sets for others. Just depending on what kind of mood I was in, what her energy levels were, how much time we had and that kind of thing.

I personally feel that rank beginners and even some intermediates (depending on the specific person) are probably better with straight sets, most haven't learned how to work hard enough to make myo rep type stuff work as well as it should.

They won't get the right stimulus because they will quit too soon (or pace themselves to survive the set). Just so Blade doesn't get his panties twisted again, I'm not saying this has anything to do with the method; this is jsut a statement of fact about many trainees and hw people find amazing ways to screw things up.

In that case, I'd use straight sets and gradually get them used to working closer to their limts to teach them how to generate that kind of intensity. That is a learned skill like any other. Beginners almost never have it, intermediates, dpeending on how they were trained, may or may not have it.

This has the added advantage of teaching people where failure actually is, becuase recommendations of 1-2 reps short of failure ONLY make sense if someone knows what their limits are, and most people think their limits are a lot lower than they actually are.

Bascially, most people stop on a set long before they are anywhere close to failure. Because it hurts, because it's uncomfortable, or whatever. If you stand in front of them and keep them doing reps until the bar literally wo'nt move no matter how much they pull or push on it, that is a teaching tool. I don't do it often but it has its role. And folks often realize that what they thought was true failure wasn't even close.

Once they learn that, suggestions of 'train 1-2 reps short of failure' work better.
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  #28  
Unread 02-08-2009, 01:47 PM
Fueled Fueled is offline
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Off topic, but who's Sarah - wife, daughter, client?
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  #29  
Unread 02-08-2009, 01:48 PM
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lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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SO/my primary/only hands on trainee right now.
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  #30  
Unread 02-08-2009, 04:35 PM
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AllGenetix AllGenetix is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
SO/my primary/only hands on trainee right now.
hands on eh?

taking on any non-hands-on clients? lol

IMO, all this is just mental wanking. it will all work. whichever is "better" is going to depend on too many individual factors, and is all under the assumption that enough calories are being consumed for growth.

stick to something that works and do it to the best of your ability instead of doing a lot of random things half I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post..
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