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  #11  
Unread 04-23-2015, 04:46 PM
Merch Merch is offline
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Originally Posted by MrRippedZilla View Post
There are "anti aging" clinics from a certain state in America that make getting prescribed steroids surprisingly easy....

To the point of whether its possible to gain muscle on steroids while in a deficit - yes, it certainly is.
Of course it wont be a huge amount, depending on the size of the deficit, but many guys have gained 3-4 pounds with relative ease on basic test only cycles.

The main issue for those considering steroids is the idea of "cycling off" - there is a very high chance of losing all of your gains eventually and full recovery (testes size, test levels, etc) is certainly not guaranteed.
In fact, most people never fully recover and resort to HRT, TRT, etc.
BS. Source?
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  #12  
Unread 04-23-2015, 04:58 PM
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lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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Originally Posted by Merch View Post
BS. Source?
There isn't one. The idea that you can permanently damage the HTPA is old lore on the level that thyroid meds can permanently damage the thyroid axis.
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  #13  
Unread 04-23-2015, 06:33 PM
MrRippedZilla MrRippedZilla is offline
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Originally Posted by Merch View Post
BS. Source?
No source - based purely on anecdotal evidence, which I'm aware will mean close to nothing for some members here but you have to realise that the studies on things like this are going to be limited.

I've seen enough post-cycle bloodwork from guys I know and others on several boards I'm active on to say that recovery is not a guarantee and that people, whether after 1 or 2 or 3 or whatever cycles, do not recover fully.
There is a good reason why things like the power pct program by Dr. Scally exist.

Also Lyle, comparing recovery from bodybuilding dosed levels of steroid cycles to that of recovery from synthetic t3/t4 isn't the best comparison.
Plenty of studies show no issues with recovery once coming off thyroid meds regardless of how long you've been on them, dosing, etc.
The same cannot be said for the types of cycles used for muscle growth.

I don't think there is enough credible evidence to say unequivocally that "natural" T levels will always return to baseline after anabolic steroid induced disruption - that's the main point.

Last edited by MrRippedZilla : 04-23-2015 at 06:50 PM.
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  #14  
Unread 04-23-2015, 08:49 PM
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lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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Why would the HPTA be permanently damaged in this way?

Give a physiological reason for it since it's shuwdown is a response to excess testostorone. EXACTLY like how T3 shuts down TSH which recovers.

Temporarily. And the same anecdotal claims are made. And the studies say it's wrong.

Why is HPTA different fundamentally?
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  #15  
Unread 04-23-2015, 10:31 PM
MrRippedZilla MrRippedZilla is offline
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I wont pretend to have more than a basic understanding of the HPTA, so I cannot answer why recovery doesn't always occur.
Leydig cell dysfunction? Over/under production from one of the hormone secreting glands causing some sort of imbalance across the hpta?
I have no idea.

The studies on recovery from anabolic induced hypogonadism, in general, show that recovery will happen eventually - even if it takes a couple of years.
Now compare this to recovery from thyroid medication - I know studies showing that baseline thyroid levels can be recovered a few weeks after years of use. I'm also unaware of any study suggesting "years" for thyroid levels to return to baseline.

Then you have the fact that you don't need some sort of "post thyroid treatment therapy" and yet with full hpta recovery things like clomid, tamoxifen, hcg, etc are routinely used to assist in this cause. And even then you have anecdotal cases where bloodwork still shows hypogonadal levels.

There must be a difference somewhere, even if I don't have the knowledge to spot it.

And then you have some evidence that recovery isn't as easy as science used to make us believe:

http://www.fertstert.org/article/S00...140-X/abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23764075

Just 15 years ago the medical community didn't even believe such a condition existed, hell didn't it take until 1996 (?) for research to show that androgens do indeed enhance muscle growth?

Again, I fully accept that the research isn't on my side on this - it clearly shows that hpta recovery may take a few years in some cases but will happen.
But its hard for me to argue with people when they have bloodwork clearly showing hypogonadal levels years after ceasing steroid use.

Last edited by MrRippedZilla : 04-23-2015 at 10:36 PM.
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  #16  
Unread 04-27-2015, 04:57 PM
Druboutin Druboutin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRippedZilla View Post
No source - based purely on anecdotal evidence, which I'm aware will mean close to nothing for some members here but you have to realise that the studies on things like this are going to be limited.

I've seen enough post-cycle bloodwork from guys I know and others on several boards I'm active on to say that recovery is not a guarantee and that people, whether after 1 or 2 or 3 or whatever cycles, do not recover fully.
There is a good reason why things like the power pct program by Dr. Scally exist.

Also Lyle, comparing recovery from bodybuilding dosed levels of steroid cycles to that of recovery from synthetic t3/t4 isn't the best comparison.
Plenty of studies show no issues with recovery once coming off thyroid meds regardless of how long you've been on them, dosing, etc.
The same cannot be said for the types of cycles used for muscle growth.

I don't think there is enough credible evidence to say unequivocally that "natural" T levels will always return to baseline after anabolic steroid induced disruption - that's the main point.
Anecdotally, I can say the exact opposite of what you're saying. I guess we just hang out with different types of people.

"Permanent" damage is an outlier.

As two endocrinologists (never cycled) and one surgeon (has cycled) have told me after working closely with aspiring pros, your typical Joe Schmo could run a handful of moderate dose/length cycles, and they'd never be able to tell after a full evaluation. Many are no worse for the wear, and some can even benefit.

And to your other point about "losing all your gains" -- this is absolutely not true, unless you give up on training/eating sufficient calories.. and if you do that, you're going to lose gains regardless of if you're using drugs or not.

Do you maintain all your strength/weight? Of course not, there's a ton of water, different leverages, and plenty of other variables at play. But unless you absolutely know nothing about what you're doing, you come out on the other side bigger & stronger than you were before until you've hit your limit.
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  #17  
Unread 04-27-2015, 05:11 PM
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lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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I can't claim to have looked into it but I believe at least some work suggests more or less permanent changes in things like myonuclear cell number and such.
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  #18  
Unread 04-27-2015, 07:04 PM
MrRippedZilla MrRippedZilla is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Druboutin View Post
Anecdotally, I can say the exact opposite of what you're saying. I guess we just hang out with different types of people.

"Permanent" damage is an outlier.

As two endocrinologists (never cycled) and one surgeon (has cycled) have told me after working closely with aspiring pros, your typical Joe Schmo could run a handful of moderate dose/length cycles, and they'd never be able to tell after a full evaluation. Many are no worse for the wear, and some can even benefit.

And to your other point about "losing all your gains" -- this is absolutely not true, unless you give up on training/eating sufficient calories.. and if you do that, you're going to lose gains regardless of if you're using drugs or not.

Do you maintain all your strength/weight? Of course not, there's a ton of water, different leverages, and plenty of other variables at play. But unless you absolutely know nothing about what you're doing, you come out on the other side bigger & stronger than you were before until you've hit your limit.
My father is an endocrinologist also, but is very much in the minority in his field in that he believes in AAS-induced hypogonadism.
I've seen enough bloodwork, something factual enough for me to not argue with, to be convinced that recovery isn't as smooth as most say it is. And even if the damage isn't necessarily "permanent", who wants to spend years hypogonadal in the hope that 1 day everything will be fine?

To use a current example, I know someone who is currently 2 weeks post pct and is LOSING weight on 6,000 cals a day despite his maintenance only being around 4,000. And yes, cals/macros have been tracked meticulously - he's lost 4 pounds in 2 weeks since ending pct.
When he gets bloodwork done, I'm willing to bet that he hasn't recovered properly.

As for the gains issue, I used to be like you - believing that as long as you stay below your genetic limit, and recovery properly, you should keep the majority.
Since getting more involved in this world, my view has completely changed.
I am NOT saying that you will lose the gains immediately post pct, I'm saying that, despite the few adaptations that do remain, you will lose the gains as the years go on because your simply not in the same environment that created those results in the first place.

Otherwise why not simply do 1 cycle and be done?
Outside of the psychological temptation to cycle again, most guys realise that the "1 cycle for mega results and that's it for me" approach is not going to work.
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  #19  
Unread 04-27-2015, 08:04 PM
squat squat is offline
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So, key points taken from your discussion:

1. Most guys never fully recover.
2. Research has shown everyone recovers.
3. You know endocrinologists.
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  #20  
Unread 04-27-2015, 08:48 PM
MrRippedZilla MrRippedZilla is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squat View Post
So, key points taken from your discussion:

1. Most guys never fully recover.
2. Research has shown everyone recovers.
3. You know endocrinologists.
Be as sceptical as you wish

I'm not going to go against bloodwork, it shows EXACTLY what is going on - undisputable in every way, especially when repeat tests show the same thing.
At best you can argue that recovery simply takes longer for some folks - fantastic, I'm sure being hypogonadal for a few years will be lots of fun.

Research on the other hand is far, far behind when it comes to matters like this. This isn't my POV, its fact - it took them until 1996 to say that androgens are anabolic. Digest that for a moment.

I fully expect that some folks will simply follow whatever the research says, I prefer to have a more pragmatic approach for some topics.

Last edited by MrRippedZilla : 04-27-2015 at 08:52 PM.
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