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  #11  
Unread 06-28-2009, 03:29 AM
Pikku Pikku is offline
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Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
A
This actaully has an interesting implication and explains the oft found reality that the best athletes are the worst coaches. Experts essentially demonstrate amnesia of the skills that they express. If you ask anathlete what he's 'thinking about' during a given skill, he can't really remember; if it's automated, he's NOT thinking about it. In fact, they often can't tell you what they are doing during the activity. This makes it difficult for them to explain to others what to do
That's really true, I'd never given it much thought before but my own experiences match that exactly. Im a fairly good soccer player and if im conciously thinking im going to do xyz trick to defeat a player alot of hte time ill screw it up whereas if im not thinking about anything and just 'in the zone' it'll all happen naturally and most times itll work out well
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  #12  
Unread 06-28-2009, 04:33 AM
Espi Espi is offline
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So there's hope for people wanting to be a PT, but think they aren't skilful enough themselves.. it might even make them better coaches once they finally master those skills
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  #13  
Unread 06-28-2009, 07:49 AM
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lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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Originally Posted by Pikku View Post
That's really true, I'd never given it much thought before but my own experiences match that exactly. Im a fairly good soccer player and if im conciously thinking im going to do xyz trick to defeat a player alot of hte time ill screw it up whereas if im not thinking about anything and just 'in the zone' it'll all happen naturally and most times itll work out well
They demonstrated this ins a really clever study

They got expert golfers and noobs and had them putt with a normal club. The experts couldn't really relate what they were doing while they were putting, the noobs could.

then they give them this weirdly weighted club that changed teh stroke. Suddenly the experts were reduced to noob level b/c it was a movement pattern that they hadn't subconsciously automated. And they were able to describe what they were doing.
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  #14  
Unread 06-28-2009, 10:22 AM
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As I quoted myself on above, I find that most trainees just go through the motions on warmups, they are listening to their MP3 player or watching the hot chicks on the steppers or whatever; what they arenít doing is focusing on what they are doing.

But, they bitch, drills are boring and not fun and that chick is really hot.
loved this in teh 2nd installment
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  #15  
Unread 08-15-2012, 11:35 AM
danbk99 danbk99 is offline
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I just read this article and I want to know if anyone has ever read either George Leonard's Mastery or Timothy Gallway's "Inner Game of.." books.

The reason being that it seems to contradict the idea of deliberate practice, in that the idea seems to be that too much concious deliberation gets in the way, and stalls improvement.

I wonder if anyone can clarify.. or maybe synthesize what the two "camps" are saying.
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  #16  
Unread 08-16-2012, 06:28 AM
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lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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How are you going to improve WITHOUT practice? Magic? Hope? Rockey-esque montage sequence to a Journey song?

With years of deliberate practice, actions which are initially conscious become unconscious.

In fact, you can mess with experts by doing this: during their activity ask them HOW they are doing something. What was once unconscious becomes conscious again and it messes them up.
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  #17  
Unread 08-16-2012, 12:39 PM
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AmbassadorW0lfe AmbassadorW0lfe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danbk99 View Post
I just read this article and I want to know if anyone has ever read either George Leonard's Mastery or Timothy Gallway's "Inner Game of.." books.

The reason being that it seems to contradict the idea of deliberate practice, in that the idea seems to be that too much concious deliberation gets in the way, and stalls improvement.
I think you might be confused over the semantical interpretation of "conscious" - where as "conscious practice" is putting in mental effort to replicate a motion, process or result, "conscious deliberation" is not practice. It's akin to mental masturbation. You're only thinking about doing something as opposed to physically doing it over and over and over again until you don't have to think about it.

I'll admit that I haven't yet read these books (although Mastery may be on my reading list, I'll have to check to be sure), but based on the summaries/insights I've read, they seem to support Lyle's notion of "deliberate practice"

http://davidmasover.com/blog/2010/04...ment%E2%80%9D/

http://www.theinnergame.com/about-tim-gallwey/

As a quick side-note, I find it hard to argue with the learning process as described by several schools of psychological thought:

1) Unconscious incompetence: You don't even know you're bad at something
2) Conscious incompetence: You now know you're bad at it and you know you'll have to start adopting new actions to change your results
3) Conscious competence: You have to deliberately exert mental and physical resources to accomplish the result you want
4) Unconscious competence: It's second nature and you don't even have to try.

Step 4 arguably is mastery. The fundamental question is how long does it take to go from step 3 to step 4 (which is where we go into the 10k hours debate).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence
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Last edited by AmbassadorW0lfe : 08-16-2012 at 12:41 PM. Reason: Adding links
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  #18  
Unread 08-16-2012, 01:12 PM
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lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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My point is that you NEVER reach stage 4 without deliberate practice. NEVER. Cuz there's no other way to magically make it unconscious.
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  #19  
Unread 08-16-2012, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
My point is that you NEVER reach stage 4 without deliberate practice. NEVER. Cuz there's no other way to magically make it unconscious.
100% totally agree.

Reminds me of the days when I played basketball back in school - I put HOURS of work into perfecting jumpshot form and execution. It wasn't until after thousands of (conscious) repetitions where I would be able to start draining shots without thinking about them.
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  #20  
Unread 08-16-2012, 02:30 PM
danbk99 danbk99 is offline
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I wasn't talking about practice per se, so much as too much practice where you are conciously directing/critiquing yourself too much during the practice. The idea in the book is that you have to just focus on one thing at a time and go with the flow..without 'demanding' a certain result during the practice..

The problem (according to Gallway) is that most people don't want to accept how long it takes to gradually get better semi-conciously through slow repetition, so they think that over-deliberating about their performance DURING practice will get a short-cut to achievement, but it won't ... it will make progress slower.. the concious mind is interfering with the long, slow process.

Last edited by danbk99 : 08-16-2012 at 02:35 PM.
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