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  #11  
Unread 03-26-2010, 09:50 AM
soultransfer soultransfer is offline
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thanks lyle. that piece was awesome.
i must admit although i didnt draw the silliest conclusions out of 'excess protein and fat....', i could grasp it completely.
now i do, thank you
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  #12  
Unread 03-26-2010, 09:55 AM
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Jean Paulo Jean Paulo is offline
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Thanks for posting the article Lyle, now I truly understand the point why protein will never be turned into fat
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  #13  
Unread 03-26-2010, 10:06 AM
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Is there a time table for how long enzymes responsible for DNL are expressed or is it simply based on the level of carbohydrate intake? I'm going to guess there's a bit of time you could get away with the high intake before the mRNA transcripts are produced.

Let's suppose someone with normal glycogen levels decides to eat 800g carbs/200g pro/40gfat (and his/her maintenance is doubled) after a period of normal eating. I suspect little storage would occur because studies have only found DNL in chronic overfeeding. Further, I remember hearing a quote in the bromo book (don't own it) that lean individuals could benefit from once a week carbohydrate overfeedings, without depleting glycogen.

Last edited by hexx : 03-26-2010 at 10:28 AM.
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  #14  
Unread 03-26-2010, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hexx View Post
Is there a time table for how long enzymes responsible for DNL are expressed or is it simply based on the level of carbohydrate intake?

Let's suppose someone with normal glycogen levels decides to eat 800g carbs/200g pro/40gfat (and his/her maintenance is doubled) after a period of normal eating. I suspect little storage would occur because studies have only found DNL in chronic overfeeding. Further, I remember hearing a quote in the bromo book (don't own it) that lean individuals could benefit from once a week carbohydrate overfeedings, without depleting glycogen.
Yes, I would also like to know this. Basically, how long can someone "get away" with a high carb/protein <10% fat diet until DNL is ramped up? Say 12 hours 1x/week? Would this be of value on a maintenance diet, assuming someone is below their set point?
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  #15  
Unread 03-26-2010, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hexx View Post
Is there a time table for how long enzymes responsible for DNL are expressed or is it simply based on the level of carbohydrate intake? I'm going to guess there's a bit of time you could get away with the high intake before the mRNA transcripts are produced.

Let's suppose someone with normal glycogen levels decides to eat 800g carbs/200g pro/40gfat (and his/her maintenance is doubled) after a period of normal eating. I suspect little storage would occur because studies have only found DNL in chronic overfeeding. Further, I remember hearing a quote in the bromo book (don't own it) that lean individuals could benefit from once a week carbohydrate overfeedings, without depleting glycogen.
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Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2004 Oct;28(10):1291-8.
Effect of carbohydrate overfeeding on whole body macronutrient metabolism and expression of lipogenic enzymes in adipose tissue of lean and overweight humans.

Minehira K, Vega N, Vidal H, Acheson K, Tappy L.
Department of Physiology, University of Lausanne, 1005 Lausanne, Switzerland.
OBJECTIVE: Lipids stored in adipose tissue can originate from dietary lipids or from de novo lipogenesis (DNL) from carbohydrates. Whether DNL is abnormal in adipose tissue of overweight individuals remains unknown. The present study was undertaken to assess the effect of carbohydrate overfeeding on glucose-induced whole body DNL and adipose tissue lipogenic gene expression in lean and overweight humans. DESIGN: Prospective, cross-over study. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: A total of 11 lean (five male, six female, mean BMI 21.0+/-0.5 kg/m(2)) and eight overweight (four males, four females, mean BMI 30.1+/-0.6 kg/m(2)) volunteers were studied on two occasions. On one occasion, they received an isoenergetic diet containing 50% carbohydrate for 4 days prior to testing; on the other, they received a hyperenergetic diet (175% energy requirements) containing 71% carbohydrates. After each period of 4 days of controlled diet, they were studied over 6 h after having received 3.25 g glucose/kg fat free mass. Whole body glucose oxidation and net DNL were monitored by means of indirect calorimetry. An adipose tissue biopsy was obtained at the end of this 6-h period and the levels of SREBP-1c, acetyl CoA carboxylase, and fatty acid synthase mRNA were measured by real-time PCR. RESULTS: After isocaloric feeding, whole body net DNL amounted to 35+/-9 mg/kg fat free mass/5 h in lean subjects and to 49+/-3 mg/kg fat free mass/5 h in overweight subjects over the 5 h following glucose ingestion. These figures increased (P<0.001) to 156+/-21 mg/kg fat free mass/5 h in lean and 64+/-11 mg/kg fat free mass/5 h (P<0.05 vs lean) in overweight subjects after carbohydrate overfeeding. Whole body DNL after overfeeding was lower (P<0.001) and glycogen synthesis was higher (P<0.001) in overweight than in normal subjects. Adipose tissue SREBP-1c mRNA increased by 25% in overweight and by 43% in lean subjects (P<0.05) after carbohydrate overfeeding, whereas fatty acid synthase mRNA increased by 66 and 84% (P<0.05). CONCLUSION: Whole body net DNL is not increased during carbohydrate overfeeding in overweight individuals. Stimulation of adipose lipogenic enzymes is also not higher in overweight subjects. Carbohydrate overfeeding does not stimulate whole body net DNL nor expression of lipogenic enzymes in adipose tissue to a larger extent in overweight than lean subjects.


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Am J Clin Nutr. 1988 Aug;48(2):240-7.
Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man.

Acheson KJ, Schutz Y, Bessard T, Anantharaman K, Flatt JP, Jéquier E.
Institute of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Lausanne, Switzerland.
The metabolic balance method was performed on three men to investigate the fate of large excesses of carbohydrate. Glycogen stores, which were first depleted by diet (3 d, 8.35 +/- 0.27 MJ [1994 +/- 65 kcal] decreasing to 5.70 +/- 1.03 MJ [1361 +/- 247 kcal], 15% protein, 75% fat, 10% carbohydrate) and exercise, were repleted during 7 d carbohydrate overfeeding (11% protein, 3% fat, and 86% carbohydrate) providing 15.25 +/- 1.10 MJ (3642 +/- 263 kcal) on the first day, increasing progressively to 20.64 +/- 1.30 MJ (4930 +/- 311 kcal) on the last day of overfeeding. Glycogen depletion was again accomplished with 2 d of carbohydrate restriction (2.52 MJ/d [602 kcal/d], 85% protein, and 15% fat). Glycogen storage capacity in man is approximately 15 g/kg body weight and can accommodate a gain of approximately 500 g before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass. When the glycogen stores are saturated, massive intakes of carbohydrate are disposed of by high carbohydrate-oxidation rates and substantial de novo lipid synthesis (150 g lipid/d using approximately 475 g CHO/d) without postabsorptive hyperglycemia.
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  #16  
Unread 03-26-2010, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMo87 View Post
Yes, I would also like to know this. Basically, how long can someone "get away" with a high carb/protein <10% fat diet until DNL is ramped up? Say 12 hours 1x/week? Would this be of value on a maintenance diet, assuming someone is below their set point?
You're not going to saturate glycogen stores in less than 24 hours.
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  #17  
Unread 03-26-2010, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvr2late View Post
In the article you stated "That exception is when dietary fat is below about 10% of total daily calories. Under that condition, the body ramps up de novo lipogenesis. So you still get fat."

Assume 10% of total daily calories means 10% of maint. calories, correct? (as opposed to 10% of diet level calories)
Given that the topic is OVERfeeding, why do maintenance or diet calories have any relevance?
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  #18  
Unread 03-26-2010, 12:30 PM
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hexx hexx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
You're not going to saturate glycogen stores in less than 24 hours.
I'm guessing this is irrelevant of CHO intake because glycogen synthesis is rate limited correct? Meaning whether someone ate 500 or 800 grams of carbs to saturate glycogen would be irrelevant within the first day of CHO overfeeding.
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  #19  
Unread 03-26-2010, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
You're not going to saturate glycogen stores in less than 24 hours.
In other words, one could conceivably overeat 1 day a week (within reason, not talking UD2-style), and as long as fat is kept at or nearly 0, not gain fat b/c DNL wouldn't have time to kick & excess carbs would go to glycogen?

*Yes I realize no fat would be lost during this time w/o extreme glycogen depletion.
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  #20  
Unread 03-26-2010, 03:08 PM
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Hmm, you seem to be suggesting a diet where you overeat carbs for 24 hours while keeping fat low...I should write a book about that or something

cough cough UD2
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