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  #1  
Unread 11-19-2017, 11:31 AM
ben876 ben876 is offline
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Default refeed questions (cat1, moderate deficit)

I recently achieved cat 1. My diet plan is to run a traditional diet with a moderate calorie deficit, and my exercise routine is a fairly ordinary strength program, heavy with low volume.

If I'm understanding right my protein requirement is now
1. if dieting: 2xLBM
2. if maintenance: 1.25xLBM
And I get 1-2 refeeds per week.

The refeeds are where I'm confused. I had thought a refeed required super high calories, but if I use the 5hr refeed at 3g/LBM, that comes out to only a little over maintenance calories:
Code:
fat   carb  protein
50g   375g  155g  :  2570 cal
If I worked out a ton I could even make a calorie deficit out of that, although I guess that would bump my protein requirement to 2xLBM where the above macros are at 1.25xLBM.

So is the above a "legitimate" refeed? My main concern is keeping my energy level high. In my previous diet as a cat2 I had to keep dropping my calories lower and lower to make continued progress. Eventually I stalled at 1400 calories, and the 2 week diet break was fantastiic for resetting my body to make continued progress again.

It's frustrating how quickly my body adapts to low calories. I don't want to take a 2 week diet break after every week of dieting, and I'm hoping if I get my refeeds figured out maybe those will keep me operating at a higher energy level before I start shutting down and have to take a break to reset.

Side note: since I'm running a strength program my muscles are somewhat depleted during the week, but nothing like a UD2.0 level of depletion, so I want to factor that into the refeed

Thoughts and advice? Thanks
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  #2  
Unread 11-20-2017, 10:37 PM
Solis Solis is offline
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Check this video out, OP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emjl1Uui3Yw

Basically, with a refeed you want to be at at least maintenance in order for it to work, eating super high calories isn't necessary. Of course, most of the calories will come from carbs while keeping fat moderate.

If you want to use them to ameliorate the metabolic adaptation then you shouldn't use the 5h refeed since it won't do anything. As Lyle said you should either do at least 2 days in a row at maintenance, or a day every 2-3 days. At your BF% you should definitely start using refeeds.
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  #3  
Unread 11-21-2017, 12:14 AM
ben876 ben876 is offline
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Thanks, I'll watch that next. It definitely sounds like what I'm looking for

I just finished reading this
https://jcdfitness.com/2010/06/the-preemptive-refeed/
which seems to advocate what I did, saying refeeds should be at maintenance or slightly over then giving examples that look real similar to my macros. When I tried UD2.0 the refeed was a disaster, I went from 15% to 16% bodyfat and took two weeks of traditional dieting to get back down to 15% (so it wasn't just the water gain from all the carbs).

So far I'm preferring the idea of refeeds that stay near maintenance rather than the UD2.0 style that go way over maintenance.

Anyway I say all this without yet having watched that video, so I'll do that next. Thanks
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  #4  
Unread 11-21-2017, 12:45 AM
Determinism Determinism is offline
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Why don't you eat at maintenance on training days and below maintenance on rest days? That way you have a "refeed" several days a week, aid the recovery process and still have a weekly deficit to lose some more weight.
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  #5  
Unread 11-22-2017, 11:29 AM
ben876 ben876 is offline
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Does that work? Ping-ponging back and forth between deficit and surplus during the week?

The podcast appeared to be saying a brief refeed does nothing for hormones, and 2-3 consecutive days were likely needed. Although Lyle also appeared to immediately concede he didn't know whether it was the number of consecutive days or the overall deficit/surplus values for the week that makes a refeed successful for resetting hormones

So, I guess I didn't get that much from the podcast, it was a lot of "nobody really knows"

My experience appears to say that many consecutive diet days are needed before progress happens. For example this week so far is
Code:
                     fat   carb  protein
sun : 147.1# 15.2% : --    --    --           : ate around maintenance
mon : 145.8# 15.1% : 67    40    178   (1475) : weight training
tue : 147#   15.2% : 66    48    205   (1606) : cycling
wed : 147#   15.2%
That's two days of significant deficits, those were both high activity days that should have resulted in 1000 calorie deficits. And so far zero results.

It's tempting to make today a refeed since I'm feeling pretty depleted, but I strongly suspect my body would throw a giant fat-storing party and the progress I'm currently on the edge of making would be lost.
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  #6  
Unread 11-22-2017, 11:57 AM
Determinism Determinism is offline
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Why would you consider a UD 2.0 style layout if your argument against pingponging is "hormones". UD 2.0 doesn't do that much more for your hormones in that regard and you still need the 2 week diet break afterwards. In fact, UD 2.0 is just needlessly complex when you're just shooting for a weekly deficit.
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  #7  
Unread 11-25-2017, 12:15 PM
ben876 ben876 is offline
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I'm not too concerned if hormones specifically are the underlying mechanism or not, I just want to avoid having my energy level drop, and was hoping the refeed could delay whatever adaptations my body must be making to conserve its energy

I think you're going beyond what the podcast concedes if you're saying that not even the 2-3 day refeed has any value in resetting hormones, although I wouldn't be surprised if you're right

My overall plan is to run moderate deficits for a few weeks at a time with 1-2 week breaks to reset hormones or whatever mechanisms affect energy levels. I agree that regardless of what the refeed might do for hormones it has value for replenishing glycogen and improving my workouts, and I guess I'll just have to experiment more to figure out how frequently I can have a refeed without it negating my diet progress for the week
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