BodyRecomposition Support Forums  

Go Back   BodyRecomposition Support Forums > My products > The Ketogenic Diet
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Unread 06-10-2008, 03:04 PM
PhysicianAssistantNJ PhysicianAssistantNJ is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 27
Default Help? Please

ive been trying to attain the Ketogenic Diet Book but cannot seem to find it online? Anyhow I have been eating 12 k/cals per pound of TBW (appx 2300 cal) and keeping carbs under 30g per day, adequate protein, and highhhh fat. Its been 3 weeks and I see minimal results, slightly leaner extremeties and upper back a bit. My midsection and love handles have barely changed. I understand the workouts are critical to deplete muscle glycogen and am doing them as directed on one of Lyle's newsletters (high volume, 4 seconds per rep, etc). Although not extremely accurate, by wednesday the ketostix have at least trace or small ketones and by thurs they are a solid moderate. Any suggestions? drop total cals?? I really cant keep carbs much lower than 25/30g. I have also been doing the optional cardio at least wed OR thurs, sometime both! Is my midsection that stubborn?!? Should i give it more time, is 3 weeks too short of time to see more results? ANy advice would be appreciated

Stats: ht-5'9"
wt-193lbs
age-28
BF - 19% measured thru bioelectrical impedence

Last edited by PhysicianAssistantNJ : 06-10-2008 at 03:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Unread 06-10-2008, 03:20 PM
yksin's Avatar
yksin yksin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Anchorage, AK
Posts: 629
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhysicianAssistantNJ View Post
ive been trying to attain the Ketogenic Diet Book but cannot seem to find it online?
It's not out there as an ebook - you have to buy it & have it shipped to you. Here's the store.

Quote:
Any suggestions? drop total cals??
As long as you kept your protein adequate, you could afford to do this by dropping some of the fats, keeping carbs (which are already low) as is. You might look into Lyle's Rapid Fat Loss Handbook which details a type of ketogenic diet called a protein-sparing modified fast (PSMF) -- low calorie, low carb, low fat, adequate protein. Basically a scientific crash diet designed to maintain lean body mass while burning off body fat. Also on the page at the above link.

-- Mel
__________________
Progress log (RFL cat. 3) Blog
5-1/4" (160 cm), 55, female, insulin resistant
Restart 17 Mar 2014: start 198.2 (89.9 kg) > current 180.8 (82.0 kg) (post-diet break) > goal 140 (63.6 kg)
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Unread 06-10-2008, 05:37 PM
PhysicianAssistantNJ PhysicianAssistantNJ is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 27
Default

thanx so much for the reply...I will def buy the books...Im around 19% BF and am looking to get to 12-15%...i mean i look good/lean but not nearly as lean as I want...i wear about a 34" jeans, looking to get a couple inches off the midsection...any thoughts from lyle or the boardees on which food plan is better as shedding body fat withough being miserable and slashing calories to ridiculously low levels??? I seem to be content with eating high fat no carb...but maybe I will look into this rapid fat loss book......any other thoughts???
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Unread 06-10-2008, 07:03 PM
yksin's Avatar
yksin yksin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Anchorage, AK
Posts: 629
Default Get both The Ketogenic Diet and the Rapid Fat Loss Handbook

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhysicianAssistantNJ View Post
thanx so much for the reply...I will def buy the books...Im around 19% BF and am looking to get to 12-15%...i mean i look good/lean but not nearly as lean as I want...i wear about a 34" jeans, looking to get a couple inches off the midsection...any thoughts from lyle or the boardees on which food plan is better as shedding body fat withough being miserable and slashing calories to ridiculously low levels??? I seem to be content with eating high fat no carb...but maybe I will look into this rapid fat loss book......any other thoughts???
Well, you're comfortable on low-carb -- makes sense that you've landed on the same two books I did: The Ketogenic Diet & the Rapid Fat Loss Handbook.

I came by way of being an insulin resistant person who overhauled my diet a couple of years ago, moving to what I was always careful to call "moderate carb" to distinguish myself from low carb, which I was always quite wary of, mainly due to the nonsense out in the larger world on both sides of the argument about carbs -- low carb cheerleaders on one hand, high-carb "dietary fat is eeeeeeevil" ideologues on the other. But as I spent a lot of time on forums that talk about insulin resistance/prediabetes/diabetes, I pretty quickly came to the realization that more & more people who are full Type 2 diabetics (I'm classified as "prediabetic") are pretty darn sure that low carb is doing better for their control of blood glucose levels than even moderate carb. So I thought, I need to check this out. I need, in particular, to check out the claims & counterclaims about ketosis, since there's a lot of nonsense out there about that too. So, I looked up ketosis at Amazon.com, found Lyle's book, saw it was out of stock there, came here, & got both that book, & the Rapid Fat Loss book.

All that as intro to saying that (1) I've been reading craploads of stuff about fat loss & nutrition, especially as both of the above relate to insulin resistance, over the past 2-1/2 years, so I've gotten to know a thing or two; (2) everything of Lyle McDonald's that I've read in both these two books & on his site matches the best of the info that I've gotten from other reliable sources (both in the fitness/physique improvement world, & the nutrition for insulin resistance world); & (3) at $49.95, The Ketogenic Diet was a bargain purchase for an incredible load of solid information -- without the stupid low-carb cheerleading or anti-low-carb bashing. It's just factual, & everything referenced.

I recommend both it and the Rapid Fat Loss Handbook. I think they go hand-in-hand. The Rapid Fat Loss book describes a particular type of ketogenic diet -- Lyle's adaptation of what's known as a Protein-Sparing Modified Fast (PSMF), which is designed to preserve lean body mass (that's the "protein sparing" part) while major bodyfat-burning is going on. The main difference between it & the diets you'll find discussed in The Ketogenic Diet is that on PSMF you're eating very minimal fats, which makes it very low calorie. Thus, it's sustainable for only periods of time because, hey, it's a crash diet. It's a technique that you use when you need it, then move back up to higher caloric levels -- whether at a more moderate caloric deficit, or at maintenance levels. (Note also that PSMF diets have a solid history in the literature for treatment of obesity/fat loss. Just check PubMed.)

The Ketogenic Diet, on the other hand, while providing in detail background info about how ketosis & adaptations to ketosis works, also provides info on three types of ketogenic diets -- the Standard Ketogenic Diet (SKD), which is more-or-less like the stuff you'd find in Atkins or Protein Power, etc. but without all the cheerleading & over-the-top claims -- just the facts; the Targeted Ketogenic Diet (TKD), which provides some carbs targeted around workouts; & the Cyclical Ketogenic Diet (CKD), which cycles between ketogenic days & high-carb refeeds, with related cycling of glycogen depletion & refilling -- basically, another way to provide for high intensity exercise while still retaining the fat-burning adaptations of a ketogenic diet. So basically, with this book you're getting lots & lots of well-written, interesting technical info about how ketosis works, as well as three different ways to adapt a ketogenic diet for different activity levels. Lots of info on exercise, too.

Working through this material myself, I quickly figured out that if you're doing low-carb to begin with, the four diets represented in these two books (that is, PSMF, SKD, TKD, & CKD) are the same in that they all are based on sufficient levels of protein, the minimum of health dietary fats (chiefly the essential omega 3s, which are deficient in most industrialized nation diets), & nonstarchy fibrous veggies that are low in carbs but high in phytonutrients. That's pretty much PSMF, right there. Then the major difference between the PSMF of Rapid Fat Loss & the SKD in the ketogenic book is that you're eating more calories through eating more dietary fats. (But also burning less bodyfat than on PSMF, because of the dietary fats that you're eating, which will get burned instead.) Then with TKD & CKD, you have two approaches which keep you mainly in ketosis, but add in carbs in order to provide the kind of energy needed for more intense physical exercise. (As PSMF & SKD can both support exercise, but only at low to moderate intensities -- carbs are needed for the turbocharge necessary for high intensity stuff.)

I figure that these two books will carry me through most of what I need to do to reach my fat loss goals, which should also result in increasing my insulin sensitivity. Then, down the line, I will likely move back to a moderate carb level, but never to the high carb level I used to eat before overhauling my diet. I am pretty sure that I, with my metabolic history, will always have to keep a close eye on my carb intake.

I want to add that one of the things that I find really refreshing about Lyle's approach, in his books as well as on this site, is that he knows that the "best diet" might be different for different people. Thus he doesn't fall into the trap of becoming an ideologue for any given "one-size-fits-all" approach over another. Because of course one size does not fit all. And along with this goes the recognition that the "best diet" for an individual might be different at one point, than at another. Today, the best diet for me seems to be the PSMF. A couple months down the line, it might be the SKD or TKD. A year from now, maybe moderate carb. Whatever -- low carb, moderate carb, high carb -- they're only right (or wrong) according to whether they're grounded in reality (that is, good science & practical experience) & whether they work for each person in helping them reach healthy goals.

Okay. Well, I hadn't expected to be writing a review, but I guess I did. Maybe I should copy all of this into a separate post & call it a review. In the meantime, I hope it helps you in making a decision about which book to buy. My recommendation is, of course: both of them.

-- Mel

Edit: Actually, I think I will (most of) this also as a review, but got a couple of adjustments/adds to make first. In case anyone's interested.
__________________
Progress log (RFL cat. 3) Blog
5-1/4" (160 cm), 55, female, insulin resistant
Restart 17 Mar 2014: start 198.2 (89.9 kg) > current 180.8 (82.0 kg) (post-diet break) > goal 140 (63.6 kg)

Last edited by yksin : 06-10-2008 at 07:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Unread 06-11-2008, 06:02 AM
PhysicianAssistantNJ PhysicianAssistantNJ is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 27
Default

great reply thanks!! I thnk ill stick with the CKD for now and maybe drop to about 10/11 k/cals per pound of TBW, see how that works....ill prob drop my fat a bit and maybe add some EC as well....lord knows when it was legal in USA i was no stranger to it. Thanks!!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Unread 06-11-2008, 06:44 AM
Espi Espi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,491
Default

Wow Mel, that's a lot of info.

Just adding 2 cents: it can be worthwhile to get the Flexible Diet book instead if you're into working out (be it cardio or weight lifting) as an enjoyable passtime on its' own rather than as a tool to lose weight, since the RFL really doesn't allow for any strenuous exercise at all, while FlexDiet will give you more tools to design your diet around it.

KetoBook is a good reference manual but I don't remember it being extremely useful for setting up a diet. If you are interested in acquiring low-carb diet books, one of the best diet low-carb diet books out there is by Anthony Colpo. He has taken great pains in making it next to impossible to 'pirate' the contents of his book, so it's still available as an e-book.

Anthony Colpo's book is very reminiscent of the Paleo Book for Athletes but then without the undue fear of saturated fats.
Finally I've also bought NHE (Natural Hormone Enhancement) by Faigin.. revolves very much around GH. Most people say though that the effect of eating in such a way that GH response will be largest (e.g. avoiding carbs during a training session) isn't the best way. Still, it's an interesting book to have.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Unread 06-11-2008, 11:16 AM
yksin's Avatar
yksin yksin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Anchorage, AK
Posts: 629
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Espi View Post
Just adding 2 cents: it can be worthwhile to get the Flexible Diet book instead if you're into working out (be it cardio or weight lifting) as an enjoyable passtime on its' own rather than as a tool to lose weight, since the RFL really doesn't allow for any strenuous exercise at all, while FlexDiet will give you more tools to design your diet around it.
Hey Espi, thanks for the recommend. That was already one of Lyle's books I had my eye on, now I will def. get it.

Quote:
KetoBook is a good reference manual but I don't remember it being extremely useful for setting up a diet.
Well, I think it is possible to set up a diet using it, but probably a bit of a puzzle for people who aren't really familiar with "what is a carbohydrate?" (I was astonished to meet someone on my trip to Seattle/Eugene who truly didn't know) or being able to distinguish the best (healthiest) sources of the various macronutrients. So a lot of people would probably need a bit of help from other books that provide that kind of info. I've been reading nutrition stuff heavily for a couple of years, so it's not much of an issue for me. In fact, I really appreciate the KetoBook (good shorthand name, thx) for its lack of handholding (& hype).

Quote:
If you are interested in acquiring low-carb diet books, one of the best diet low-carb diet books out there is by Anthony Colpo. He has taken great pains in making it next to impossible to 'pirate' the contents of his book, so it's still available as an e-book.

Anthony Colpo's book is very reminiscent of the Paleo Book for Athletes but then without the undue fear of saturated fats.

Finally I've also bought NHE (Natural Hormone Enhancement) by Faigin.. revolves very much around GH. Most people say though that the effect of eating in such a way that GH response will be largest (e.g. avoiding carbs during a training session) isn't the best way. Still, it's an interesting book to have.
Ah, great, thanks again. I will check those out too. The exercise thing is pretty important to me, so any ounce of knowledge of how to exercise around ketosis is pretty useful. I've been encouraged a lot, as my time in ketosis lengthens, by how capable I am now of doing more exercise -- not high-intensity stuff, to be sure, but definitely more than I could do in the first week or two on the PSMF. Which is as predicted in the KetoBook. But the TKD & other ways of designing a keto diet for high intensity exercise will be good.

At this point, I'm not sure CKDs that involve a couple of days of heavy carb-eating are a good option for me, since I'm insulin resistant & heavy carbs mucks w/ my blood sugars. I'm very interested learning to optimize a low-carb diet (from 20g up to maybe 75-100g/day) for someone with my metabolic issues & goals. I.e., I want to be lean, fit, healthy, insulin sensitive, healthily muscular, but I don't necessarily aspire to ultra-lean.

-- Mel
__________________
Progress log (RFL cat. 3) Blog
5-1/4" (160 cm), 55, female, insulin resistant
Restart 17 Mar 2014: start 198.2 (89.9 kg) > current 180.8 (82.0 kg) (post-diet break) > goal 140 (63.6 kg)
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Unread 06-12-2008, 06:38 AM
Espi Espi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,491
Default

Personally, CKD didn't work for me. Either because as a cyclist (was very much into long-distance cycling at the time (2003) I tried CKD or more likely, because the carbs were processed poorly because of gluten intolerance and lack of starch enzymes (amylase plus some other enzymes like alpha-galactosidase = or beano stuff)
Everyone who's been (very) low carbing for a considerable amt of time, will have less enzymes available. It took me about 6 months of eating starches more than 2 times a week, before I would no longer balloon from even moderate amounts of carbs.

Nowadays I can have up to 500g (11g/kg LBM) of carbs in 1 day and barely see a blip on the scale. Generally I keep carbs to around 6-7g/kg LBM on carb-ups. The result has been more consistent fat loss and not having to scale back on workout volume or see performance go down the drain.

Only when you'd be really into endurance it can be interesting to try a standard KD for a while and see if you can push up the anaerobic threshhold that way, viz get to higher speeds w/o using up much glycogen.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Unread 06-12-2008, 01:14 PM
yksin's Avatar
yksin yksin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Anchorage, AK
Posts: 629
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Espi View Post
Everyone who's been (very) low carbing for a considerable amt of time, will have less enzymes available. It took me about 6 months of eating starches more than 2 times a week, before I would no longer balloon from even moderate amounts of carbs.
Very useful info (entire post) -- thanks. I just read it, & it's already influencing my thinking about how to eat for free meals & diet breaks. I was moderate carb for a couple of years -- maybe 100-125g carb/day; my weight during that time ranged from about 190-210 lbs. I've only been low-carbing since May 3 using PSMF (down in that time from 194 to 180, & still losing).

I had seen in the Ketobook that enzymes involved in carb metabolism get downregulated on low-carbs, so that initially a refeed of carbs will result in insulin-resistance-like symptoms even for people who aren't insulin resistant. But I am insulin resistant, so I reckon those initial symptoms would even be exacerbated for me. Seems useful, then, to keep those enzymes from downregulating too much, esp. since I'd like to return to moderate carb as my everyday maintenance diet once the biggest fat loss portion is done. Do you think eating a moderate portion of starchy carbs for my free meals during the PSMF would help with this?

Prior to low carbing, I'd been making a lot of soups with beans/legumes, which tend to be pretty good on the glycemic index -- my favorites are soups made w/ lentils or blackeyed peas, with the occasional chili; all soups including some kind of meat as well as plenty of nonstarchy veggies. Here's a pic w/ recipe of one such soup.) So I think I'll give a shot for tomorrow night's free meal with a good bowlful of lentil soup, & monitoring my blood sugar reaction to the meal.

What do you think?

-- Mel
__________________
Progress log (RFL cat. 3) Blog
5-1/4" (160 cm), 55, female, insulin resistant
Restart 17 Mar 2014: start 198.2 (89.9 kg) > current 180.8 (82.0 kg) (post-diet break) > goal 140 (63.6 kg)
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Unread 06-13-2008, 04:09 PM
Espi Espi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,491
Default

Incorporating starchy carbs into your free meals would be a very good idea. Since you speak about free meals only, do I understand you're a cat. 3 dieter? Or are you afraid of refeeds and prefer 2 free meals over 1rf+1fm?

From the legumes, lentils are the easiest to digest so starting with these would be easiest as these don't require much cooking time nor even soaking.
Yet, taking Beano (or what I'm using : Jarro-zymes with a full spectrum digestive enzymes) would help w digestion.

I've got some allergy/intolerance issues going on, which is why I'm currently avoiding glutinous grains/legumes (including soy/pb) and dairy almost entirely. Don't feel sorry: just downed a bag of popcorn for my (somewhat fatty) refeed
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.