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  #1  
Unread 08-24-2019, 05:14 AM
Ambitius Ambitius is offline
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Lightbulb The biomechanics of lifting [Doug Brignole]

I wanted to start a discussion about the mechanics and physics of lifting inspired by Doug Brignole, an expert in biomechanics who got me on the track. I want the discussion to focus on hypertrophy as it pertains bodybuilding, not max.strength.

He talks about topics like :
  • All or nohting principle of the muscles
  • reciprocal innervation
  • opposite position loading
  • lever arms
  • optimized resistance curves
  • Not doing multiple exercises for a muscle group (e.g. chest : incline, decline, flys, dips etc..) but doing (just) the best exercise in terms of biomechanics

Squats, Bench, Deadlifts, Overhead Press etc. are all very inferior exercises for the sole goal of hypertrophy. (See his videos&book, for further explanation)

But even 3dmj and Lyle recommend some "bad" exercises, e.g. incline bench presses and overhead presses - Doug made a video analyzing incline presses and explaining, why it's an inferior exercise, again we're talking about hypertrophy and bodybuilding purposes - watch it here . His explanation makes totally sense from a physics standpoint, and some german(emg)studies, that I've read in conjunction with practise confirm this, too.

Of course I get the reasoning behind compound exercises, and time-efficient ways to train. But a little bit of everything, sometimes is much ado about nothing.

Lyle what are your thoughts on Doug's teachings ? I wanted to bring this up, since I've heared that you wanted to write about this topic in the near future, too. Doug has had also an analysis for better quad exercises and it differes from what you've recommended in the past, i.e. your article (squats vs leg press - by the way the german book from Boeckh-Behrens and Buskies (2000), which everyone quotes analyzes 3 variants of leg presses and shows which one is more favourable - as does Doug in a similar way) - to name some sissy squat, cable/brignole squat to name some, see more here. I know that you've adressed a bit about this topic in your recently released muscular tension part 2 article.


For me personally as I've recently discovered Doug and watched/read all his stuff it was a game changer. I even developed his ideas from shoulder training, i.e. training each head of the shoulder (as) isolated (as possible) with a favourable resistance curve, into something, I deem, most optimal for me.

Last edited by Ambitius : 08-24-2019 at 05:29 AM.
  #2  
Unread 08-24-2019, 10:00 AM
lylemcdonald lylemcdonald is offline
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There are no BAD exercises and I've said OHP sucks for years. Pray tell what is wrong with incline bench?

Beyond that, meh. I've talked about all this for years. Did some tedious videos for my FB group.

Anybody talking in terms of 'best' exercise is a fool

His analysis of types of leg press? Well sissy squat isn't a leg press. the leg press vs. squat article wasn't an attempt to analyze all leg press variants. It was a comparison of TWO movements. So the comparison doesn't hold.

Sissy squat is more quad? True. And it tears up knees. There is always a trade off.

And there are individual differences in biomechanics. Maybe he talks about it but I can't be asked to go look.

Thinking there is a single best exercise for every person under every situation based on theoretically idealized biomechanics is idiotic.

What else need be said? The BEST exercise a given person is

1. Must load the muscle effectively (i.e. amtch their biomechanics, not smoe theoretical ideal)
2. Be able to be progressively loaded safely (tell me how you load a sissy squat over time. 25 on chest, 45 on chest, 90 on chest?)
3. Not hurt them

Everything else is absolutist wanking.
  #3  
Unread 08-24-2019, 01:48 PM
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zLeeKo zLeeKo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcdonald View Post
The BEST exercise a given person is

1. Must load the muscle effectively (i.e. amtch their biomechanics, not smoe theoretical ideal)
2. Be able to be progressively loaded safely (tell me how you load a sissy squat over time. 25 on chest, 45 on chest, 90 on chest?)
3. Not hurt them

Everything else is absolutist wanking.
Yes, yes and yes.

I have this in my training files, along with many more gems from you.

Lyle, I always LOVED how you can take something complicated (or something that is debated among "experts" ad nauseam) and put in few simplistic sentences so everybody can grasp it and understand.

As Maxim Gorky, who used to write utterly long books, once said about Anton Chekhov, after being impressed how Chekhov can write 4x times shorter book and still say as much as him: "The power of genius can be put in a nutshell".
__________________
"He never had the makings of a varsity athlete"
  #4  
Unread 08-24-2019, 04:37 PM
lylemcdonald lylemcdonald is offline
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Simply:

Individual differences > theoretical "ideal" biomechanics

I don't give the first damn if a sissy squat is harder on the quads if it wrecks someone's knees for example.
  #5  
Unread 08-24-2019, 04:40 PM
lylemcdonald lylemcdonald is offline
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Did a Google, foudn an interview with him

This is nonsensical gibberish.

" It’s just a less comfortable movement, so I avoided the compound movements that seemed unnatural, but I did do the compound movements like squat, that seemed natural, without joint distortion."

Some weird comparison to an upright row which is 'contorted' forwards or some such.
  #6  
Unread 08-25-2019, 01:20 AM
Fatty McFatso Fatty McFatso is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcdonald View Post
What else need be said? The BEST exercise a given person is

1. Must load the muscle effectively (i.e. amtch their biomechanics, not smoe theoretical ideal)
2. Be able to be progressively loaded safely (tell me how you load a sissy squat over time. 25 on chest, 45 on chest, 90 on chest?)
3. Not hurt them

Everything else is absolutist wanking.
Youíre forgetting 4. Fun. Because intensity and fun go hand in hand. And 5. Practical, because most of us arenít paid to lift. Isolation workouts are neither of those things. How many isolation exercises does it take to reproduce a deadlift?

Everybody wants to be a bodybuilder, but nobody wants to move heavy weights
  #7  
Unread 08-25-2019, 07:35 AM
LightCrow LightCrow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatty McFatso View Post
How many isolation exercises does it take to reproduce a deadlift?
Depends on the goal. For hypertrophy any muscle youíre trying to grow using a deadlift can be more effectively done with other exercises. Some isolation and some not.
  #8  
Unread 08-25-2019, 09:58 AM
Ambitius Ambitius is offline
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I'll try to answer the questions, but honestly just watch the vids - so I don't have to crossquote...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcdonald View Post
There are no BAD exercises and I've said OHP sucks for years. Pray tell what is wrong with incline bench?
Response
TLDR;
- not in lign with the fibers - not bringing the insertion to the origin..
-nobody flexes his chest muscles in a incline bench motion, guess why?
-it's front delt, triceps more than the chesticles

Quote:
Beyond that, meh. I've talked about all this for years. Did some tedious videos for my FB group.
They should be gathered somewhere, maybe a youtube playlist.


Quote:
Anybody talking in terms of 'best' exercise is a fool
So is anybody...talking in absolutes. But in terms of biomechanics, optimal with the least cost - we can classify certain exercises.
If a squat loads the quads only by 30% (e.g.!) and compresses the spine a lot - vs. a cable squat >>30% without any spine compression - it's easy.
Further Reference
Quote:
His analysis of types of leg press? Well sissy squat isn't a leg press. the leg press vs. squat article wasn't an attempt to analyze all leg press variants. It was a comparison of TWO movements. So the comparison doesn't hold.
One article on the squat thing from him.

Quote:
Sissy squat is more quad? True. And it tears up knees. There is always a trade off.
Earth not flat, knees over toes ok and...Sissy Squats for quads, like skull crushers for triceps - does it tear the triceps up ?No. See this I've rewinded it to the relevant part.But anyways, Doug has a picture in his vid, where he uses bands to reduce the weight at the beginning.
Quote:
And there are individual differences in biomechanics. Maybe he talks about it but I can't be asked to go look.

Thinking there is a single best exercise for every person under every situation based on theoretically idealized biomechanics is idiotic.
Well, we have to start somewhere to get as close to ideal as possible. I mean why write a book about women, when all are different or like a caloric deficit and protein - for a weightloss stint - and then determine who does better on higher or lower carbs.



What else need be said? The BEST exercise a given person is

1. Must load the muscle effectively (i.e. amtch their biomechanics, not smoe theoretical ideal)
Quote:
2. Be able to be progressively loaded safely (tell me how you load a sissy squat over time. 25 on chest, 45 on chest, 90 on chest?)
There you go, Leg Blaster


Although I've pointed out in fat the most important topics to quote myself
Quote:
lever arms

optimized resistance curves

Not doing multiple exercises for a muscle group (e.g. chest : incline, decline, flys, dips etc..) but doing (just) the best exercise in terms of biomechanics
nobody cared to adress them. So I'll bring up, this for the front delt. Your opinion ?
Or in general at his delt tips, which regarding the comments, helped people training for over 20+years to develop them.

Last edited by Ambitius : 08-25-2019 at 10:09 AM.
  #9  
Unread 08-25-2019, 10:02 AM
lylemcdonald lylemcdonald is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatty McFatso View Post
You’re forgetting 4. Fun. Because intensity and fun go hand in hand. And 5. Practical, because most of us aren’t paid to lift. Isolation workouts are neither of those things. How many isolation exercises does it take to reproduce a deadlift?

Everybody wants to be a bodybuilder, but nobody wants to move heavy weights
Whatever. I'm assuming people are interested in results and not entertainment.

Because what I see in most gyms is a lot of people enjoying their workouts

And making zero progress doing it that way.

And deadlifts suck for growth. And aren't 'fun' by anybody's definition. Not if you actually train them. So that just contradicts your point. People don't deadlift for fun. And leg press + back extension + midback gets it done

How you got to deadlifts vs ISOLATION movements for this 'discusion'. well that's a logical fallacy called excludin the middle.

It's not an either-or. In 3 movements I can 'replicate deadlifts' and get people far more results than a movement that is exhaustingly hard and has a weak piont that ensures that nothing is trained very effectively

again, nobody training DL's HARD will describe it as fun to begin with
  #10  
Unread 08-25-2019, 10:22 AM
Ambitius Ambitius is offline
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Lyle is absolutely right, and I'll add"Squats are not the best exercise for quads, deadlifts for back, and bench press for pecs" period. It took people years to realize this and Lyles was one of the first to address the leg press vs squat and OHP dilemma.

Why do deadlifts suck for hypertrophy of the back ? Because in order to hypertrophy, a muscle has to be shortened and via a deadlift it's mainly a static hold=isometric errector spinae. So yes, back extensions and this variant.

Squats are inferior as they don't load the quads efficently (ca. 30% load, yes it makes you look big in the eyes of your gym bros but it's not efficient), better variants cable squats, leg extensions(why is there much less load possible than in the squat?Because it's more efficient - and isolating) and sissy squats, hack squats, leg curls.

Barbell bench press is inferior to dumbbell and flat is inferior to decline, better variant decline dumbbell press. Source
The most exciting thing I took out of this german exercise study book, which everyone quotes partially(!) is that decline bench beat incline for the upper pecs !!!Cable Crossovers High to low were much better for the clavicular head than incline or high cross overs !The researchers didn't know why ! Doug gave an explanation in one of his videos (opposite position loading..)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcdonald View Post
Whatever. I'm assuming people are interested in results and not entertainment.

Because what I see in most gyms is a lot of people enjoying their workouts

And making zero progress doing it that way.

And deadlifts suck for growth. And aren't 'fun' by anybody's definition. Not if you actually train them. So that just contradicts your point. People don't deadlift for fun. And leg press + back extension + midback gets it done

How you got to deadlifts vs ISOLATION movements for this 'discusion'. well that's a logical fallacy called excludin the middle.

It's not an either-or. In 3 movements I can 'replicate deadlifts' and get people far more results than a movement that is exhaustingly hard and has a weak piont that ensures that nothing is trained very effectively

again, nobody training DL's HARD will describe it as fun to begin with

Last edited by Ambitius : 08-25-2019 at 10:25 AM.
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