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  #121  
Unread 05-18-2013, 08:20 PM
niloluiz niloluiz is offline
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Originally Posted by sanjeev_k_sharma View Post
I don't suppose there are any easy tests for purity & excipients?
Unfortunately nothing easy or accessible to the common person.

When taking any compound from those "underground sources" there is always an element of trust or "faith". Either you are comfortable enough with what you get and the info you may eventually have about it to go ahead, or not.

This is also valid for the vast array of steroids and other "gear" widely used by the BB subculture. Many of those compounds are made at unknown labs at China, India, Turkey, Pakistan, etc.... and despite having on the surface the appearance of an industrialized compound, there's no way to know about the purity of source chemicals used, contaminants, effective dosage, etc....
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  #122  
Unread 05-18-2013, 08:47 PM
sanjeev_k_sharma sanjeev_k_sharma is offline
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Originally Posted by niloluiz View Post
Unfortunately nothing easy or accessible to the common person.

When taking any compound from those "underground sources" there is always an element of trust or "faith". Either you are comfortable enough with what you get and the info you may eventually have about it to go ahead, or not.

This is also valid for the vast array of steroids and other "gear" widely used by the BB subculture. Many of those compounds are made at unknown labs at China, India, Turkey, Pakistan, etc.... and despite having on the surface the appearance of an industrialized compound, there's no way to know about the purity of source chemicals used, contaminants, effective dosage, etc....
Just starting to read in this area/subculture I was under the impression it's mostly legitimately produced industrial chemicals "diverted" by supply chain insiders in North America or by anyone in retail or wholesale in places where these things aren't controlled (India, other parts of Asia or parts of Africa).

Are most of these chemicals controlled in Brazil, Thailand, etc ... ?

If the regular industrial/pharmaceutical supply's not controlled, no reason for meth lab type stuff, right?

A rich guy with time & money to burn could just go to India for 6 months and do a couple of cycles of any steroid ever invented, plus all the other drugs, including DNP couldn't they ... even hire a real nurse to do the injections? With USP grade pharmaceuticals too. Or would it be British Pharmacopoeia?

Last edited by sanjeev_k_sharma : 05-18-2013 at 09:04 PM.
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  #123  
Unread 05-19-2013, 09:27 AM
niloluiz niloluiz is offline
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I don't know specifics of that as I never used "gear" of any kind. Before DNP at most I used clenbuterol and ECA-related products.

But from what I could gather here and there when I was searching for DNP sources, many of these compounds are produced from legitimate companies but there are "alternatives" brands as well complete forgeries/fakes which is also common in this arena (well the same for pharmaceutical drugs in general).

I don't know specifics about countries but It's safe to assume that if one specific compound is not prohibited in any given place and the same is produced there, it becomes a potential "source".

About clandestine labs, it probably depends on the substance itself and how difficult it's to acquire it.

Well you could go to Amsterdam to experiment all sorts and flavors of pot... the same could be done to other places that have no restrictions for a given drug too.
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  #124  
Unread 05-19-2013, 09:47 AM
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lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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To purchase DNP in the United States requires certain types of licenses (you have to prove you'r edoing research or have some other need for it) that are not easy to come by.

I suspect that most people selling capped DNP have found a source, buy it (it's cheap as chips) and then resell it at a massive upscale. So long as they are not idiots about using a scale, it will be safe. You have to mess up pretty badly to mis dose like that. That's on top of the biggest pill being about 1 gram anyhow.

I'm sure there are hombrew recipes to make it. Anybody with the organic chemsitry background to run that synthesis won't be an idiot about the scale or mis-measure that badly.

The biggest issue might be contaminants I guess. Then again, if you knew about all the bug parts in your food...

Again, find a TRUSTED long-term source where people have used it without problems and there should be minimal risk in terms of dosing per cap per se.
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  #125  
Unread 05-19-2013, 05:09 PM
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trn450 trn450 is offline
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Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
Actually you do need to expand and I don't like passive aggressive crap like your last statement. The risk of death by DNP is miniscule relative to most of the choices you make in a day.
I didn't argue statistical risk of death is large for using black market DNP. I obviously couldn't substantiate any argument in either direction. And, I don't doubt the relative intelligence of garage chemists. I simply stated that you cannot compare the choice to fly commercial to the choice of taking black market DNP. You were acting like it's ludicrous for me to feel uncomfortable purchasing DNP from the black market when the lethal dose and therapeutic dose are so close under the assumption that I"d make the decision to fly commercial even though it would put me at (implied) comparable risk. But, on that note I would like to mention that commercial air, for example, is pretty much the safest decision you can make with exceedingly few deaths in flight/person-years. Having said that, to be honest, I have a fear of flying haha

Quote:
Then I hope you don't eat any food (contamination), take any medications (might be tampered with), leave the house (someone might shoot you or you get hit by a car) or do anything but curl up, lay in bed and suck on a cheerio for nourishment. Then you'll die of malnutrition and inactivity of course.
I get your point, but it's still not comparable. I can stick a carrot up somebody's nose who is MRSA colonized and eat it because my healthy body will undoubtedly defend itself through the many protection mechanisms evolutionarily imparted unto my physiology explicitly for the purpose of allowing me to eat in the context of ubiquitously contaminated food.

I only take medications when I need them. They do have intrinsic risk's that are very significant. I also do evaluate seals for tampering.

As for leaving the house, that's requisite to life.

DNP is a very powerful proton ionophore that uncouples oxidative phosophrylation and can cook you. Not to mention the intrinsic risk of buying black market drugs in the first place. It is not requisite to life, it is not "needed", and it tears apart our biochemical infrastructure rather than being subject to it's many defenses like most bacteria that come into contact with our immune system and other physical and chemical resistance barriers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
The difference, admittedly, is that big drug companies expend huge money for quality control.

Some bodybuilder mixing stuff up in his bathtub may not.

In that sense, I agree with trn450. Even so, if you're buying from a trusted known source, he'd have to be pretty stupid to miss a decimal point like that.
And, this was my primary point. I think I mentioned it several times. If pfeizer said, here is some DNP in 100mg caps, I'd say "yes please". But, I personally find the risk (if even small) too large for the relatively small benefit I might get from it when acquired from a garage chemist. I can lean out to personally acceptable levels using diet alone, and I'm patient enough to do it over a longer period of time.

I am more hyper-vigilant than most, but I hardly would consider my statements to be hysterical. Seeing the number of medical errors and medication associated morbidity and mortality with what are relatively safe drugs, I just cannot justify personally going after black market DNP. I see "outliers" presenting to the hospital in life-threatening condition from "rare" diseases or afflictions all of the time.
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Last edited by trn450 : 05-19-2013 at 05:25 PM.
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  #126  
Unread 05-19-2013, 07:53 PM
niloluiz niloluiz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trn450 View Post
... It is not requisite to life, it is not "needed", and it tears apart our biochemical infrastructure...
It does no such thing, really. This is the typical FUD you will find on random boards out there.

Of course if you overdose on it then it will cause catastrophic failure of your organism.... but to imply that this is the intrinsic effect of the drug it's plain and simple disinformation if not outright sophism.
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  #127  
Unread 05-19-2013, 08:13 PM
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trn450 trn450 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niloluiz View Post
It does no such thing, really. This is the typical FUD you will find on random boards out there.

Of course if you overdose on it then it will cause catastrophic failure of your organism.... but to imply that this is the intrinsic effect of the drug it's plain and simple disinformation if not outright sophism.
By definition an ionophore increases permeability of membranes. An extrinsic ionophore such as DNP which increases proton permeability across mitochondrial membranes is effectively tearing apart our biochemical infrastructure, if only temporarily, by making the membranes permeable to ions in ways they wouldn't otherwise be permeable to them. The proton gradient exists to drive ATP production--DNP destroys the efficiency of that gradient by altering the permeability of the membrane.

This isn't simply a side effect, this is the mechanism of action that makes it effective. Granted, the difference between therapy and toxicity is typically dose for any chemical--including H2O and O2.

Having said that, I can see how you wouldn't appreciate that explanation if you don't quite understand that structure and function of a biological membrane, and more specifically, the inner and outer mitochondrial membranes as they pertain to oxidative phosphorylation.
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Last edited by trn450 : 05-19-2013 at 08:19 PM.
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  #128  
Unread 05-19-2013, 08:48 PM
niloluiz niloluiz is offline
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Originally Posted by trn450 View Post
By definition and ionophore increases permeability of membranes. An extrinsic ionophore such as DNP which increases proton permeability across mitochondrial membranes is effectively tearing apart our biochemical infrastructure, if only temporarily, by making the membranes permeable to ions in ways they wouldn't otherwise be permeable to. The proton gradient exists to drive ATP production--DNP destroys the efficiency of that gradient by altering the permeability of the membrane.

This isn't simply a side effect, this is the mechanism of action that makes it effective. You inefficiently use up energy. Granted, the difference between therapy and toxicity is typically dose for any chemical--including H2O and O2.

Although, I can see how you wouldn't appreciate that explanation if you don't quite understand that structure and function of a biological membrane, and more specifically, the inner and outer mitochondrial membranes as they pertain to oxidative phosphorylation.
It'd interesting that you put in this perspective although I still think "destroying" or "tearing" in the context you used was misleading words (see bellow). Yeah it's used on some biological textbooks and yes it's is technically a "metabolic poison" which is another way to name what you just described; A better description however would be "it disrupt the proton gradient change in the inner part of mitochondrial membrane. Cells continue to oxidize food molecules to feed electrons into the electron-transport chin, but H+ ions pumped across the membrane flow back into the mitochondria in futile cycle."

Interestingly a very similar mechanism used by..... brown fat cells... they naturally do what DNP causes in all cells by a similar mechanism. These specialized fat cells are packed with mitochondria that leak part of their H+ gradient futilely back across the membrane for the sole purpose of warming up the organism. These cells are brown because they are stuffed with mitochondria, which contain high concentrations of pigmented proteins, such as cytochromes.

When I saw that info for the first time, I find it amuzing because it turns out, DNP mechanism of action isn't something "alien" or "esoteric".... but rather something very similar to what some specialized tissues in the body already do "by design". Hence why I think throwing away the words "destroys", "tears" out of context can be misleading.

One line of research for potential weight-loss drugs is precisely the objective of 1) converting white fat cells to brown ones and 2) activate it's heat mechanism so it's stay 'on' for most of the time.

Guess what, DNP already do that wholesale on the entire organism.
Granted it's far from perfect but recent research on this subject concludes that this mechanism is a valid method for weight loss treatment and should be further researched (if I find the paper that mentions that I will post here later).

Now if the weight loss industry invested in the pursue of a DNP successor with less sides (say, zero risk of cataracts, no yellow staining, etc) coupled even with a secondary agent that could fend off excess heat production for example.... it would not be hard to imagine a drug that would raise metabolism by 50%+ with half or less of DNP sides.

While this doesn't happen, DNP carefully administered is a perfectly valid option for weight loss treatments even more so for morbid obese individuals (DNP is far, far preferable then those franken-surgeries that literally mutilates the gastro-intestinal aparatus as a way of treatment).

Even though biochemistry minutia regarding DNP is not my interest, I'm all for discussing any facts and objective data on this subject, specially because I'm using it.

Btw I shall post more details about my ongoing experience with it soon.
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  #129  
Unread 05-20-2013, 12:18 AM
Artie Artie is offline
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There's totally unreal to refeed on DNP? And how to spare LBM with 30 day cycle?
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  #130  
Unread 05-20-2013, 05:31 AM
w1cked w1cked is offline
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Originally Posted by Artie View Post
There's totally unreal to refeed on DNP? And how to spare LBM with 30 day cycle?
cell tech. jk (kinda). i found dnp to be very lbm sparing, I could lose a couple kgs in a week and retained more mass than a slow cut with just ec and whatever.
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