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  #1  
Unread 10-08-2013, 12:03 PM
Hoppa Hoppa is offline
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Default Where did i mess up?

I was eating at maintenance at 2100 cals. 5'8 170lbs 13-15%bf Decided to start cutting. Lowered cal intake by 200 to 1900 cals (150C 60F 200P).

Book recommends refeed once per week. 4-6g of carbs/lbs LBM. My LBM is around 145lbs. Thus 145 x 4 (using lower end)= 580 C.

Refeed macros = 580C 50F 170P. (is 1g/lb protein too high?)
Refeed cals = 3450 (which is 1550 more than usual intake)

Deficit of 200 per day x 6 days = 1200 cal deficit by the end of the week

Im eating more during my refeed than my total deficit. Its not even a deficit anymore. What did i do wrong? i read the book and everything. what needs to change?
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  #2  
Unread 10-08-2013, 01:09 PM
farrenator farrenator is offline
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I doubt you need a refeed with that small of a deficit.
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  #3  
Unread 10-08-2013, 03:03 PM
Primalkid Primalkid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farrenator View Post
I doubt you need a refeed with that small of a deficit.
+1
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  #4  
Unread 10-08-2013, 10:46 PM
Hoppa Hoppa is offline
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But my recovery is pretty rubbish now. could tell from my prolonged muscle aches, which i never had before this. Ive seen other bodybuilders being told to slow down on their cut as they start losing strength (im a powerlifter, which makes it much more important). They still use refeeds however, albeit not as much as what Lyle recommends. I did a little comparison yesterday night, it seems that carb intake on Lyle's refeeds are much higher than what others recommend. Most other athletes that refeed once a week have their carbs at approx 300-400, whereas based on Lyle's recommendation (using 4-6g/ LBM), it easily starts at 600.

What i came up with is that i can either:

1) continue cutting on small deficit, refeed once a week but at lower carbs (ie: NOT using 4-6g/ LBM)

2) Continue cutting on small deficit, refeed less often, but based on Lyle's recommendation on carb intake. (ie. using 4-6g/LBM)

3) Increase deficit, continue refeed once a week, with Lyle's values (ie. using 4-6g/LBM))


What do you guys think of this?

Last edited by Hoppa : 10-08-2013 at 10:48 PM.
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  #5  
Unread 10-09-2013, 09:50 AM
farrenator farrenator is offline
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What makes you think you need a refeed? Are you losing strength? Muscle soreness is just muscle soreness. You can get sore when eating at maintenance or surplus.

If your goal is weight loss and you don't have a competition coming up I would increase the deficit and do refeeds as per Lyle's recommendations. That is just me though. I would rather increase the deficit in order to diet for a shorter period of time as opposed to a small deficit but longer diet time.
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  #6  
Unread 10-09-2013, 10:23 PM
Primalkid Primalkid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farrenator View Post
What makes you think you need a refeed? Are you losing strength? Muscle soreness is just muscle soreness. You can get sore when eating at maintenance or surplus.

If your goal is weight loss and you don't have a competition coming up I would increase the deficit and do refeeds as per Lyle's recommendations. That is just me though. I would rather increase the deficit in order to diet for a shorter period of time as opposed to a small deficit but longer diet time.
This, plus if you have chronic soreness than it is other aspects of your training or lifestyle that is hindering progress. How is sleep? How is form under the bar? Perhaps your training intensity is too high to recover from.

Last edited by Primalkid : 10-09-2013 at 10:24 PM. Reason: Spelling
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  #7  
Unread 10-10-2013, 12:01 AM
Hoppa Hoppa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farrenator View Post
What makes you think you need a refeed? Are you losing strength? Muscle soreness is just muscle soreness. You can get sore when eating at maintenance or surplus.

If your goal is weight loss and you don't have a competition coming up I would increase the deficit and do refeeds as per Lyle's recommendations. That is just me though. I would rather increase the deficit in order to diet for a shorter period of time as opposed to a small deficit but longer diet time.

Never have i experienced muscle soreness while bulking/maintenance and at the start of my cut while i was 95kgs (im now 77). Muscle soreness definitely is affecting my performance, especially on my shoulder presses and Bench press.

From my understanding, isnt it all about calories in - calories out by the end of the week? So, hypothetically, there really isnt much of a difference between (larger deficit + large refeed) and (small deficit + small refeeds), assuming the net deficit by the end of the week is the same. Do you know what i mean?

Unless, there's an actually benefit of one over the other, which im trying to find out, if you would care to explain?
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  #8  
Unread 10-10-2013, 07:32 AM
farrenator farrenator is offline
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Yes, and no. How helpful was that? Seriously though, all else being equal, I think you are right. At the end of the day it has to do with caloric deficit at the end a period of time. However, there are some specific circumstances where this doesn't hold true due to the magic of partitioning. I am thinking specifically here of the UD 2.0 diet.

I think the benefit of a small deficit + small refeed is its smaller impact on performance, day in day out. If you can stand that way of dieting, go for it. My preference is largely due to psychological reasons. I'd rather get after the fat loss aggressively while putting performance on the back burner, and then get after the performance aggressively when the diet period is over.

I just don't see 200 calories being so large of a deficit that it is leading to the problems you describe. I am no expert however. As was pointed out, how are the rest of the aspects of your training, life? Sleep, routine, when was the last time you took a deload? But you know what, a sure fire way to find out if it is the caloric deficit is to keep all else the same and just eat at maintenance. Then see if your problems go away. I'd be interested to hear the results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoppa View Post
From my understanding, isnt it all about calories in - calories out by the end of the week? So, hypothetically, there really isnt much of a difference between (larger deficit + large refeed) and (small deficit + small refeeds), assuming the net deficit by the end of the week is the same. Do you know what i mean?

Unless, there's an actually benefit of one over the other, which im trying to find out, if you would care to explain?
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  #9  
Unread 10-11-2013, 12:19 PM
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Bobbyguns18 Bobbyguns18 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoppa View Post
Never have i experienced muscle soreness while bulking/maintenance and at the start of my cut while i was 95kgs (im now 77). Muscle soreness definitely is affecting my performance, especially on my shoulder presses and Bench press.

From my understanding, isnt it all about calories in - calories out by the end of the week? So, hypothetically, there really isnt much of a difference between (larger deficit + large refeed) and (small deficit + small refeeds), assuming the net deficit by the end of the week is the same. Do you know what i mean?

Unless, there's an actually benefit of one over the other, which im trying to find out, if you would care to explain?
Hoppa,
Yes, you're correct where calories in-calories out is concerned. There are two things, however, that I've noticed. One, is your maintenance calculation. At 170 lbs, even sedentary, your maintenance cals come to approximately 2350-2380/day. Not a huge difference, but +/- 200 cals/day can have some effect. Secondly, even at that higher maintenance, eating at 1900 cal/day and refeeding with 3450 gives you about a 1600 calorie deficit PER WEEK. That's less than .5 lb./week of fat loss. Yes, you will most definitely maintain performance, but won't experience much fat loss. A refeed would almost be counterproductive with such a small deficit, and I would recommend a larger (maybe 20-25% or so) deficit if you're doing refeeds and want to lose fat.
Regarding muscle soreness and/or performance; unless your protein intake is suffering due to your deficit, it shouldn't have much of an effect. I am currently on a 40-50% deficit and haven't suffered any strength losses, extra soreness or other diverse effects. (Except for a minor stall, which I will work out of soon enough). Good luck with your goals...
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My RFL Log
http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=21716

My new "Flexible" Diet Log (9/8/13)
http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=26761
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  #10  
Unread 12-18-2013, 11:36 AM
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kowens kowens is offline
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As others have said, you don't need a refeed once/week on such a small deficit. Maybe a free meal, but not a refeed.
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