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  #21  
Unread 01-27-2018, 07:45 AM
AlphaBettor AlphaBettor is offline
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Originally Posted by LightCrow View Post
You seem quite happy to preach all the volume for advanced. So if not Wernborn’s rep targets (which Lyle’s advanced routine is in line with) what would you tell an advanced to do?
I don't have a huge issue with the Wernbom targets, but an advanced trainee is probably going to skew toward the higher end of the range and, depending on rep range, may well go over. If trying to push everything at once and systemic recovery was an issue, I'd be more inclined to cut the frequency. A 3-day split done over a 5 day cycle would be one possible solution (this could also be rotated through 4 days a week for those who need a schedule in line with a calendar week.)

You can go to specialization training, or less imbalanced but still somewhat imbalanced routines where you work to improve some muscle groups and then maintain others with lower frequency/volume. A lot of my setups are customized and don't follow a rigid split. Sometimes this is called variable split training.

There are a lot of other ideas. Some go to minimalist training or use high intensity methods to save time. Others accept that, at a certain point, the increasing effort and sacrifices are no longer worth relatively smaller and smaller gains in hypertrophy... where that point is will be different for most.

If you have a fool proof guide on what to do when advanced, please share. Like many readers here, I've tried a lot of different things and no training is perfect. For example, rotating specialization training sounds great in theory-- and works extremely well for the focus bodyparts-- but break down an annual cycle, including periods to diet the lard off, and you're looking at hitting everything like once a year if you give all of chest/back/delts/bi/tri/quad/ham/calves equal emphasis. But try to bring them all up at once and it's just too much work. There are pros and cons to every setup.

Last edited by AlphaBettor : 01-27-2018 at 07:58 AM.
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  #22  
Unread 01-27-2018, 07:54 AM
AlphaBettor AlphaBettor is offline
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About the comment re: possibly cutting the frequency: This is just one approach. It's the one I favor the most (when trying to improve everything, or at least most muscle groups, at once) but it is not the only one. Others have suggested a higher frequency, but these are surely complimentary. An ideal long-term approach would likely have periods of higher volume/lesser frequency and others of higher frequency/lesser volume as they probably stimulate hypertrophy in different ways.

That said, for bodybuilding, I do think there is a certain importance to the volume per session for at least some of your cycles. Figure ~10 work sets for a large muscle and 7-8 sets for smaller (not accounting for overlap) to almost completely exhaust a muscle. This is not a crazy amount of per-session volume for an advanced bodybuilder to hit, again with there being different methods to achieve this (reduced frequency, imbalanced training, etc.) It's not something you're doing with all muscle groups 2-3x/week... not for very long anyway.

Last edited by AlphaBettor : 01-27-2018 at 08:01 AM.
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  #23  
Unread 01-27-2018, 07:59 AM
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zLeeKo zLeeKo is offline
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Originally Posted by AlphaBettor View Post
Of course. We all have to figure out just how much time and effort we want to put into this. There's also the issue of what is ideal versus what can actually be recovered from, and optimal hypertrophy volume across many muscle groups ends up being a whole lot of work. There are ways to periodize around this though and one thing that is often overlooked is that not every muscle group needs the full volume. That's a whole separate, lengthy discussion though.
We're in an agreement, as usual.

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Originally Posted by LightCrow View Post
You seem quite happy to preach all the volume for advanced. So if not Wernbornís rep targets (which Lyleís advanced routine is in line with) what would you tell an advanced to do?
In terms of making progress as advanced lifter, he is right about the volume recommendation.

My friend who is advanced natural lifter, with GREAT genetics, uses Lyle's spec cycles, and without 15 sets per workout for specialized mucle group, he can't progress. It's going very slowly, he maybe adds one rep and that's just SOMETIMES.

You can't go with Wernborn, that's my suggestion, because it's a starting base, which works great for begginers and intermediates.

Anyways, when he stalls, he adds a bit of volume. With Lyle's advices for sets, he always stalls.

As someone above said, you have to find right balance of volume, intensity and frequency in order to progress at that stage. Is it worth it to invest so much and go with crazy volumes like him for minimal return of interest in terms of muscle mass (muscles that can be added in that stage are miniscule)? I don't think so and I discussed it in my previous post.

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By statistical average, most of us will never get beyond suck. Train moderately, make progress, have fun, have a life.
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  #24  
Unread 01-27-2018, 08:12 AM
AlphaBettor AlphaBettor is offline
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Nice post. The part about your friend needing 15 sets per workout on a specialization cycle to progress is interesting. I've never gotten to that point and few people will. Those who are truly very advanced sometimes have to try unusual things. For example, Lyle has talked about using block training with an advanced bodybuilder before. I forget the exact details but it was something like 2-3 days in a row of heavy loading for focus bodypart(s) and then time to rest (and probably work other bodyparts at maintenance.)
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  #25  
Unread 01-27-2018, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by AlphaBettor View Post
Nice post. The part about your friend needing 15 sets per workout on a specialization cycle to progress is interesting. I've never gotten to that point and few people will. Those who are truly very advanced sometimes have to try unusual things. For example, Lyle has talked about using block training with an advanced bodybuilder before. I forget the exact details but it was something like 2-3 days in a row of heavy loading for focus bodypart(s) and then time to rest (and probably work other bodyparts at maintenance.)
Oh yeah, block training is for elite (guy named Sporto on old forums, who is a genetic monster, used to use it, he has logs there). I would say block training is even above specialization cycles, even tho both are dual factor based programs. After that you're just done. Or steroids.

Yeah, block training is basically training the same bodypart 2-3 days in a row and then allowing it to rest for a similar length period.

My friend and other similar people probably just react bad to low volume/high intensity stuff I guess, which can be solved with your advice: An ideal long-term approach would likely have periods of higher volume/lesser frequency and others of higher frequency/lesser volume as they probably stimulate hypertrophy in different ways..
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Last edited by zLeeKo : 01-27-2018 at 08:44 AM.
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  #26  
Unread 01-27-2018, 05:53 PM
w1cked w1cked is offline
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I find that moderate recommendations still rule the day. 2 days of 6 to 8 sets with optimized recovery =continuous progress (or once every 4th day ish..whatever, around that ballpark) Pushing "mrv" nonsense=burn out (mental staleness and icky joints for me) in about 2 to 3 wks. I gotta slap myself during the times i feel great and wanna feel like pushing more workload for just because zi can...never ends well.
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  #27  
Unread 01-28-2018, 05:54 AM
patriots2 patriots2 is offline
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Originally Posted by w1cked View Post
I find that moderate recommendations still rule the day. 2 days of 6 to 8 sets with optimized recovery =continuous progress (or once every 4th day ish..whatever, around that ballpark) Pushing "mrv" nonsense=burn out (mental staleness and icky joints for me) in about 2 to 3 wks. I gotta slap myself during the times i feel great and wanna feel like pushing more workload for just because zi can...never ends well.
Sounds like a plausible approach. What RPE or reps before failure do you push too? How much failure training do you use?
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  #28  
Unread 01-28-2018, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w1cked View Post
I find that moderate recommendations still rule the day. 2 days of 6 to 8 sets with optimized recovery =continuous progress (or once every 4th day ish..whatever, around that ballpark) Pushing "mrv" nonsense=burn out (mental staleness and icky joints for me) in about 2 to 3 wks. I gotta slap myself during the times i feel great and wanna feel like pushing more workload for just because zi can...never ends well.
+10

If I was enhanced, I would train like natural, MAYBE slightly more, and I would just let steroids do their thing with recovery.
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  #29  
Unread 01-28-2018, 07:09 AM
w1cked w1cked is offline
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Originally Posted by patriots2 View Post
Sounds like a plausible approach. What RPE or reps before failure do you push too? How much failure training do you use?
Every workout i might push maybe one to three sets till concentric failure based on how I feel. These usually aren't spleen busting grinding failures but more like failing your training max failure. Usually the last set of the movement. For isos I might do a couple cheat reps and drop sets to cut time/increase intensiveness. Usually about 1-2 RIR. For pressing I dont Push as hard as pulling since I find going too close to failure pushing really ranks subsequent reps I can get from next sets.

@zleeko

I was running 400mg cyp pushing mrv still sucked. Next time i have chance to push it in the gym id add like 2 to 4 total sets of compounds/workout over normal like you said probably in the 8 to 15 range.
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  #30  
Unread 01-28-2018, 08:01 AM
LightCrow LightCrow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w1cked View Post
I was running 400mg cyp pushing mrv still sucked. Next time i have chance to push it in the gym id add like 2 to 4 total sets of compounds/workout over normal like you said probably in the 8 to 15 range.
Thatís basically me when I use super soldier serum as well. Iíll usually still follow the GBR but I just do the upper volume limits Lyle outlined and sometimes add in a 3rd set for tris and bis if I have time. Otherwise not much different than if I was a natty.
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