So confused about refeed. Please advise

[mattymoose]

I just recently learned Lyle's new stance on the refeed is that 5 hours does nothing in terms of metabolic adaptation. One day slightly better than nothing, 2 days is good, and 3 days is ideal. I am a cat 2 and this seems contradict everything I read in the book. For example, he says not to do a free meal and refeed back to back. But now I hear 2 days in a row is the way to go. Should I skip the free meal and turn it into a refeed instead and then refeed again the next day?

[BenM]

There’s a difference between a free meal and a refeed. A free meal is just that - eat what you want. A refeed is planned and has some thought put into its composition - it should be high in carbohydrates and fats should be maintained at a low level, because carbohydrates aren’t as likely to be stored as fat and will cause the biggest hormonal response.

So yeah - if you’re gonna refeed do it that way; fruit and veg, pasta, rice, oats, bread, etc - not cake and chocolate.

Martin McDonald also recently did a talk on this at Bodypower (aggressive refeeding strategies for overcoming fat loss plateaus) where he outlined the case for this strategy; suggesting do ~3 days minimum, high carbs, preferably around heaviest training days, moderate protein, low fat. Seems legit.

[mattymoose]

Originally Posted by BenM

There’s a difference between a free meal and a refeed. A free meal is just that - eat what you want. A refeed is planned and has some thought put into its composition - it should be high in carbohydrates and fats should be maintained at a low level, because carbohydrates aren’t as likely to be stored as fat and will cause the biggest hormonal response.

So yeah - if you’re gonna refeed do it that way; fruit and veg, pasta, rice, oats, bread, etc - not cake and chocolate.

Martin McDonald also recently did a talk on this at Bodypower (aggressive refeeding strategies for overcoming fat loss plateaus) where he outlined the case for this strategy; suggesting do ~3 days minimum, high carbs, preferably around heaviest training days, moderate protein, low fat. Seems legit.

Yes I'm aware of the difference between the free meal and refeed. But since my free meal basically puts me around maintenance(2000c) for the day anyway, my thinking is just to turn it into a refeed day over 5-10 hours, high cho/low fat instead of something like steak, fries, dessert over a single meal (calories being equal to the refeed) then repeat the next day. This is all in terms of raising leptin...seems like his new position on refeed duration makes rfl a bit different than what it used to be. Unless I'm missing something?

[PhysiologyIsPhun]

Originally Posted by mattymoose

Yes I'm aware of the difference between the free meal and refeed. But since my free meal basically puts me around maintenance(2000c) for the day anyway, my thinking is just to turn it into a refeed day over 5-10 hours, high cho/low fat instead of something like steak, fries, dessert over a single meal (calories being equal to the refeed) then repeat the next day. This is all in terms of raising leptin...seems like his new position on refeed duration makes rfl a bit different than what it used to be. Unless I'm missing something?

If you're still in cat 2, I would say if you wanted to skip the free meal and just do two refeed during the week, go for it. The hormonal problems shouldn't be too great until you start to reach <12% bf, but your performance at the gym definitely suffers without the refeeds. If I was you, I'd space them out over the week versus 2 days back to back. The reason is 2 days isn't enough to reset hormones anyway and you'll be able to replenish your glycogen stores more frequently. When I was cat 2, I did this for 6 weeks and it worked really well.

[mattymoose]

Originally Posted by PhysiologyIsPhun

If you're still in cat 2, I would say if you wanted to skip the free meal and just do two refeed during the week, go for it. The hormonal problems shouldn't be too great until you start to reach <12% bf, but your performance at the gym definitely suffers without the refeeds. If I was you, I'd space them out over the week versus 2 days back to back. The reason is 2 days isn't enough to reset hormones anyway and you'll be able to replenish your glycogen stores more frequently. When I was cat 2, I did this for 6 weeks and it worked really well.

Ahhh, you're logic seems spot on cuz I forgot to take into account that hormonal problems aren't as big of a problem for cat 2 vs cat 1. I just watched both of his podcasts on refeeds revised and he does say, although counterintuitive the leaner you get the more refeeds become necessary(which he said for years) and mentions EODs could be helpful with this outside of the extreme ud2. I'm probably not at the point where EODs are necessary let alone ud2 as I'm just trying to cut and maintain lbm alla rfl. But still, this makes me think that the old rfl rules(one weekly 5 hour refeed) are a bit out the window.


Also should mention I've been on bupropion 300xr for quite some time so I think this helps wrt metabolic slowdown.

[mattymoose]

Originally Posted by PhysiologyIsPhun

If you're still in cat 2, I would say if you wanted to skip the free meal and just do two refeed during the week, go for it. The hormonal problems shouldn't be too great until you start to reach <12% bf, but your performance at the gym definitely suffers without the refeeds. If I was you, I'd space them out over the week versus 2 days back to back. The reason is 2 days isn't enough to reset hormones anyway and you'll be able to replenish your glycogen stores more frequently. When I was cat 2, I did this for 6 weeks and it worked really well.

At 31:00 describes what you said

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=emjl1Uui3Yw

Cheers

[BEATMEOUTTAME]

Originally Posted by mattymoose

Ahhh, you're logic seems spot on cuz I forgot to take into account that hormonal problems aren't as big of a problem for cat 2 vs cat 1. I just watched both of his podcasts on refeeds revised and he does say, although counterintuitive the leaner you get the more refeeds become necessary(which he said for years) and mentions EODs could be helpful with this outside of the extreme ud2. I'm probably not at the point where EODs are necessary let alone ud2 as I'm just trying to cut and maintain lbm alla rfl. But still, this makes me think that the old rfl rules(one weekly 5 hour refeed) are a bit out the window.


Also should mention I've been on bupropion 300xr for quite some time so I think this helps wrt metabolic slowdown.

Yeah i think the basic point is you can't reset your metabolism just because you eat big for a day. So no need to truly binge. You're basically just eating something that's not RFL friendly for the mental break. And you're refeeding so you can maintain performance in the gym and fuel recovery.

The true metabolism reset comes in the form of the 2 week diet break.

I have to laugh when I see someone that's 30% bodyfat say it's my cheat day... You've been cheating for 4 straight years... I think you'll be okay. If anything you are just filling your body with MSG's that are going to trigger withdrawal cravings again tomorrow. When I have a "cheat day" it means hey I saw 2 lbs of Ribeyes that were on half price clearance so i bought them and im going to trim the fat off the edges. Or I'm going to buy all natural ingredients and make my own pizza with high protein choices as toppings instead of eating the buttery 5,000 calorie Pizza Hut buffet. Or I'm going to make steak fries in the oven by slicing up potatos and glazing them with olive oil. You can "cheat" and eat stuff that tastes really good without doing something completely counterproductive...

[mattymoose]

Originally Posted by BEATMEOUTTAME

Yeah i think the basic point is you can't reset your metabolism just because you eat big for a day. So no need to truly binge. You're basically just eating something that's not RFL friendly for the mental break. And you're refeeding so you can maintain performance in the gym and fuel recovery.

The true metabolism reset comes in the form of the 2 week diet break.

I have to laugh when I see someone that's 30% bodyfat say it's my cheat day... You've been cheating for 4 straight years... I think you'll be okay. If anything you are just filling your body with MSG's that are going to trigger withdrawal cravings again tomorrow. When I have a "cheat day" it means hey I saw 2 lbs of Ribeyes that were on half price clearance so i bought them and im going to trim the fat off the edges. Or I'm going to buy all natural ingredients and make my own pizza with high protein choices as toppings instead of eating the buttery 5,000 calorie Pizza Hut buffet. Or I'm going to make steak fries in the oven by slicing up potatos and glazing them with olive oil. You can "cheat" and eat stuff that tastes really good without doing something completely counterproductive...

I appreciate the chime in but I'm more curious about metabolic slowdown and raising leptin. I get that the diet break is how you reset your metabolism but I'm talking about what to do while on rfl, not at maintenance. I'm surprised that there isn't more mention on the forum or that people aren't making a bigger deal about the 5 hour refeed not being effective at all but people are still buying the book thinking it's still the way to go. If Lyle's stance is that it is now useless it seems to change a big part of rfl.

[redrumdiet]

Originally Posted by mattymoose

I appreciate the chime in but I'm more curious about metabolic slowdown and raising leptin. I get that the diet break is how you reset your metabolism but I'm talking about what to do while on rfl, not at maintenance. I'm surprised that there isn't more mention on the forum or that people aren't making a bigger deal about the 5 hour refeed not being effective at all but people are still buying the book thinking it's still the way to go. If Lyle's stance is that it is now useless it seems to change a big part of rfl.

+1

This is why ud2 is perfect with dealing metabolic slowdown for those in cat1 territory, the 2-3 days of overfeeding mostly lessens it. A 5-24h refeed is not enough and does not help physiologically, psychologically it's nice tho.

[BEATMEOUTTAME]

Originally Posted by mattymoose

I appreciate the chime in but I'm more curious about metabolic slowdown and raising leptin. I get that the diet break is how you reset your metabolism but I'm talking about what to do while on rfl, not at maintenance. I'm surprised that there isn't more mention on the forum or that people aren't making a bigger deal about the 5 hour refeed not being effective at all but people are still buying the book thinking it's still the way to go. If Lyle's stance is that it is now useless it seems to change a big part of rfl.

Yeah i addressed this in the first paragraph. 5 hours isnt going to do a thing for leptin levels. It's irrelevant.

The refeed is to maintain performance in the gym. The cheat meal is just a psychological break.