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  #11  
Unread 09-13-2017, 11:59 PM
eraser51 eraser51 is offline
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hi!

sorry I didnt clarify it:

no I did a diet break and higher carb reverse diet after keto for a longer time (1/2 year I think)

I am doing 3-4 "hard" full body workouts per week and no cardio (only a bit to warm up for the exercise)

so everything should be in check...

maybe I should wait longer.. but itas hard anyway

with whom should I talk about the food intake?
does lyle coach?!
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  #12  
Unread 09-14-2017, 01:00 AM
Determinism Determinism is offline
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If you're not clear about food intake, then probably there's your answer.

You don't need a coach. The only thing you have to do is monitor your food intake and make sure you hit proper macro's and micro's. Then, just play the waiting game.

Track it with a tool like My Fitness Pall: https://www.myfitnesspal.com/

Note that as a woman you may hold very much water weight depending on your hormones, menstrual cycle (monthly fluctuations) and salt intake. Don't stress about the scale, just trust the diet and be patient.
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  #13  
Unread 09-14-2017, 02:04 AM
John Wayne Davids John Wayne Davids is offline
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Smile Thanks for the information. Here's what I think...

From what I understand too much exercise can be determental, but I don't know if it would effect water balance or not (perhaps too much cortisol or something - I have no idea). Lyle mentions in RFL that weight trainers should train using full body workouts once every 3-4 days doing "a few" heavy sets with reps in the 6-8 range. Under "Maintaining Training Adaptions" on his article Weight Training For Fat Loss Part 2, he suggests cutting training down from normal by 2/3rds. His example states:

Quote:
Based on the 2/3rds rule, you could conceivably cut back to 2 heavy sets of 6-8 reps (maintaining the same weights you finished the cycle with to the best of your ability) once per week and maintain your strength and size. That is, both volume (6 sets becomes 2 sets) and frequency (2 workouts becomes 1 workout) can be reduce by 2/3rds but ONLY if intensity (weight on the bar) is maintained.

Yes, 2 heavy sets.
You have said that you are training 3-4 times a week. In two weeks you would train 8 times. Once every 4 days is 2 times in 2 weeks.

Why I mentioned all of this is that it might be something to consider, but everyone is different, so it may be irrelevant.

It's worth bearing in mind that the purpose of training on a diet (mostly) is to maintain current muscle mass. Yes, you could build muscle under very limited curcumstances as I understand it, but keeping it is far more important. You might benefit from flipping your perspective from "I'm working out to lose weight and/or gain muscle" to "my diet is creating the fat loss and my workouts are maintaining my muscle mass and no more."

Dropping some of the training and adding some light walking (if you don't walk much) could help.

*If someone more knowledgable than myself on this could chime in and add or critique my point above then that might be helpful to the OP. My ideas are based on what I've read and, therefore, alternative views might help adjust them to something relevant to the OP's situation.

----

Lyle doesn't coach as far as I know.

----

You can just post a food diary for 7 days in the Logs Section of the forum and use the USDA food search tool to figure out your calories, protein, carbs and fat intake. If you use a spreadsheet then you could take a screen shot and post that. Ask people to check your numbers using the same site (to avoid different values). With 7 days of data on your typical diet, I'm sure people can confirm whether you are on the right track.

Also, if you haven't got the RFL handbook then now would be the time. A good diet setup is the number one thing you can do to ensure you are on the right track.

----

Note: As you're a woman, you might want to listen to Determent below. Less stress is good. Patience is even better.
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  #14  
Unread 09-14-2017, 04:35 AM
eraser51 eraser51 is offline
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hi guys!

1) logs I can post/send.. will do in a week or so
already using myfitnesspal since 3-4 years or so... just didnt track my weight exactly the last times because I was on the reverse diet and trying to get my metabolism back up

2) miriku (original thread owner) is the woman
I am male. but no problem at all

3) is there NO chance for muscle building /hypertrophy in diet?
I mean surely the maintenance muscle aspect is higher but shouldnt the insulin (whey/protein amount) AND the stimulus also work in diet phases?
Because the necessary amount of caloriers to build muscle should come from the release (and burned off) fat, shouldnt it?
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  #15  
Unread 09-14-2017, 12:44 PM
John Wayne Davids John Wayne Davids is offline
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Question I'm not sure either.

From what I understand if you are a beginner then you might - strong emphasis on might - gain some muscle on a very large deficit diet.

Usually for muscle growth to occur in the trained you need two things: 1) A stimulus (correct training) and 2) A caloric surplus. Without one the other cannot happen. If you are not new to training and have already gained the "easy" muscle that comes from being a beginner then you will probably need both of the above to succeed.

With RFL/PMSF you are on a bigger than 50% defict. You do have adequate protein, but muscle building requires carbs and fats and a few micro-nutrients to occur. On RFL you don't have enough resources and fuel (calories) to build anything. It's like trying to build a house with only wood and no nails or other connective tools. It is possible, but not likely.

I think you need to ask yourself why you are dieting. Would you like to lose weight very quickly (PMSF/RFL) or are you looking to build muscle and lose fat? It might be tempting to choose the later, but the growth will be painfully slow and the fat loss moreso. In a way you are best breaking down the body then building it back up rather than trying to do two things at once.

So, my answer based on what I've read is "Maybe, but not likely".

----

On a side point, an interesting tidbit I read recently is that it takes quite a lot of energy to build muscle. A person's caloric needs are higher (60-200 calories more a day over maintance) during muscle building. However, once the muscle is built the calories lower (back down to maintainence) with only a minor increase in total daily expenditure coming from this new muscle.

Also, if insulin and stimulus was enough to build muscle then I could eat a single bag of sugar and work out and gain muscle regardless of whether I was in a deficit. People would be eating 400 calories of sugar, working out and getting jacked and lean. (Edit: Even with adequate protein, insulin and stimulus are probably not enough. In a way, muscle buidling requires a whole bunch of things [carbs, fats, nutrients, insulin, etc. etc.] to occur. It's not just a case of one factor alone. Everything matters [to some extent].)

Finally, what are the calories from fat doing in a diet? They are powering your body. If your body needs 2000 calories a day and you supply it with 1000 calories a day then it takes 1000 calories from fat stores to maintain function. I'd be quite surprised if it tagged on an extra 200 calories from fat to aid muscle building. I suppose for a beginner that might be how it works (?), but I suspect that the body prioritizes survival (i.e. reaching the next day) over growth. Look at pictures of the Minosota Starvation Experiment. I hear they made them march a few hours a day and they were probably pretty active without TV and general modern life getting in the way of activity. As you can see from the picture below they don't look very muscular regardless of the activity.



I just don't think that fat will convert for muscle building in the somewhat trained (non-beginner). It's my opinion alone, but I just can't see the body wanting to do that given we are starving it.

(Edit: If you aren't doing RFL or PMSF then maybe becomes "it's possible". The less of a deficit you are in the higher the chances imo.)

Last edited by John Wayne Davids : 09-14-2017 at 12:55 PM. Reason: Missed a point
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  #16  
Unread 09-14-2017, 01:04 PM
John Wayne Davids John Wayne Davids is offline
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Post A Web Link

You might find this good reading:

https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/mu...mistakes.html/

Quote:
The simple physiological fact is that, to gain muscle, you have to provide not only the proper training stimulus, but also the building blocks for the new tissue. This means not only sufficient protein (see below) but also sufficient calories and energy. While itís wonderful to hope that the energy to build new muscle will be pulled out of fat cells, the reality is that this rarely happens (there are some odd exceptions such as folks beginning a program, and those returning from a layoff).
Note: My emphasis.

Last edited by John Wayne Davids : 09-14-2017 at 01:06 PM.
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  #17  
Unread 09-14-2017, 10:58 PM
eraser51 eraser51 is offline
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As far as I know sugar is a completely different thing because it is part fructose and part glucose. So fructose will be used in the liver instead in the muscle which doesnt do anything for you glycogen stores/muscles.


It should be possible to build muscle. Menno did a review on this. Because kcals are kcals.
Bayesian BB
Also nutrients, no doubt but why would the muscle need carbs? the highest insulin spike (more than white bread) and necessary thing is protein (protos = the first). I am just not sure about the mtor pathway but usually thats leucine thing so it should work with protein only regardless.


I highly doubt that the starvation study did hypertrophy work. Seems more likely that they did a ton of cardio.
Also not (much?) enough protein since the diet consistet of potatoes, turnips and stuff
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnes...ion_Experiment


finally: would love to get some news on this all...dont know how accurate my findigns are
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