BodyRecomposition Support Forums  

Go Back   BodyRecomposition Support Forums > General information > General training questions
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Unread 02-12-2009, 10:36 AM
AndyAustin AndyAustin is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Memphis, Tn
Posts: 59
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by symbolic View Post
I'm trying understand the difference between a healthy response to an exercise stimulus and an unhealthy one. In fact, Lyle has written a fair amount about overtraining in this regard. My point goes further: is much of the working out we do is overtraining insofar as it develops hypertrophy/strength that is injurious over the long haul? Witness the myriad health problems of chronic intense lifting (e.g., joint injuries, muscle tears, a loss of movement, etc.). Again, all of the activities you mention are good, but, they DO NOT involve the weights we use in the gym. Perhaps what I'm getting at is the need for higher rep training as this would better duplicate "functional" performance.

As for my desire to avoid hard work, that's not the issue as you frame it. Your evocation of "hard work" as somehow indicative of "effective" or "good" might be part of the problem. Perhaps busting one's I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post. in the gym is an unhealthy psychological response to a fragile ego in need of boosting. There's a difference between intelligent exercise to improve one's health and a pathological desire to be bigger and stronger at any cost, including "working hard in the gym." I'm inquiring BECAUSE I work hard in the gym. I'm wondering if the way I and many others do it is really healthy (or functional). I'm willing to do what's necessary to optimize my health. I'm questing what that entails exactly. This requires questioning the dominant paradigm.
No, hard work isn't always effective. However, you seem to be categorizing everything we do in the gym as "non functional", when several on here have shown you how the movements ARE functional. Are you going to ever match movement patterns exactly? No. However, the movement patterns performed in every day activity aren't ever exactly duplicated, either.

I bolded an area in your quote for a reason. I would like for you to explain to me, since I have competed in powerlifting on and off for the past 12 years or so, why you would assume that I have a "pathological desire to be bigger and stronger at any cost", since, according to your own words, it's either that or training intelligently. I would assume that you believe that soccer players have a pathological desire to kick things? I would counter that the power type lifts, performed intelligently and with thought put into the variations in volume and intensity, are VERY healthy and I'll likely be performing them well into old age.

If your true desire is to mimic climbing trees, picking up vegetables, and throwing spears.....then climb trees, pick up vegetables, and throw spears.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Unread 02-12-2009, 10:38 AM
Weib Weib is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 815
Default

I don't know why you guys have to make functional training sound like some voodoo science with some mythology involved..

It simple, train the major planes of the body - vertical/horizontal push and pull, hip and quad dominant.
All aspect according the body's biomechanics which is more compound then isolations.

Bottom line is to balance out the anterior and posterior chain muscles and strengthen what is weak.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Unread 02-12-2009, 10:42 AM
AndyAustin AndyAustin is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Memphis, Tn
Posts: 59
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weib View Post
I don't know why you guys have to make functional training sound like some voodoo science with some mythology involved..

It simple, train the major planes of the body - vertical/horizontal push and pull, hip and quad dominant.
All aspect according the body's biomechanics which is more compound then isolations.

Bottom line is to balance out the anterior and posterior chain muscles and strengthen what is weak.


According to Mr Symbolic...that's not "functional"...apparently it has to mimic picking berries off a bush or some such.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Unread 02-12-2009, 11:40 AM
mpipes mpipes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 316
Default

Personally I prefer doing headstands on swiss balls while stretching a resistance band between my feet, for kinky situations which... oops, this is the nice forum.. won't go there.

Reply With Quote
  #45  
Unread 02-12-2009, 12:00 PM
AndyAustin AndyAustin is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Memphis, Tn
Posts: 59
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpipes View Post
Personally I prefer doing headstands on swiss balls while stretching a resistance band between my feet, for kinky situations which... oops, this is the nice forum.. won't go there.

I think I found the video of tha...you're right, wrong forum!
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Unread 02-24-2009, 07:15 AM
flyingspur flyingspur is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 38
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by symbolic View Post
To expand....

Indeed, most of us lead sedentary lives compared to our pre-modern ancestors. From this perspective, any amount of gym activity is functional. But, even those who want to avoid the elusive quest for "most functional" recognize that some gym exercises are more functional than others. Isn't there near consensus about the superiority of free weights over machines (with few exceptions)? So, why not push the debate further? If free weights are better than machines because they allow for more natural movements, why not ask if there are better movements besides the ones typically done using free weights (e.g., bench press, deadlift, squat, etc.)?

Here's another angle. Putting aside those who want hypertrophy for purely aesthetic reasons (and as I said, if that's your thing, go for it), my critique of traditional gym exercises is that it develops hypertrophy that's not optimal given our evolutionary design. In other words, we didn't evolve to develop the muscles necessary for Olympic lifting. Granted, Olympic lifting might help one perform some everyday activities compared to sitting on one's I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post. all day. But, that's accepting a model of what's "good enough" rather than pursuing a superior model. I'm inquiring about developing a movement routine geared towards our modern lives in which we no longer do the physical activities we evolved to perform. Although traditional gym exercises are better than nothing, isn't it possible that something else is even better still? This is how we innovate: by questioning the status quo in terms of the assumptions upon which it's predicated. Sometimes the status quo is indeed the best; innovation for innovation's sake alone isn't praiseworthy. It's very difficult to critique a deeply entrenched paradigm and even more challenging to give it up. I'm convinced there's reason to question the prevailing gym exercise paradigm given questions about how such movements are designed to optimize sport performance and body image, neither of which are necessarily healthy. Indeed, I want evolutionary fitness (just not the Arthur DeVany variety).

Put differently, I'm no longer a hunter and gatherer even though I'm designed to be one. To the extent it's practical to do so, I want to engage in activities my body was optimally designed to perform. I'm not convinced traditional weight lifting is the way to achieve this end. I'm more convinced, however, that jogging, along with some intermittent sprinting, is closer to what we're meant to do. As for upper body movements, that's where I'm at a loss. I suppose it would be something like climbing trees to gather fruits, throwing a spear to kill animals, picking up carcasses and carrying them home, bending over to pick vegetables, etc.. Given the impracticality of engaging in such activities, I need to find gym movements to duplicate them.

Thanks all for listening.
Try crossfit
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Unread 02-27-2009, 01:44 PM
Manveet Manveet is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 60
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyAustin View Post
If a bear is chasing a human, I would suggest the human sprint. "Jog most animals into exhaustion?" What on earth would a real world scenario been at any time in our evolution where that scenario would actually play out? The jogger in question would either be eaten or watch his lunch disappear in front of him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wI-9RJi0Qo
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Unread 02-27-2009, 06:37 PM
BWTrainer BWTrainer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 677
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyAustin View Post
According to Mr Symbolic...that's not "functional"...apparently it has to mimic picking berries off a bush or some such.
I'm pretty sure symbolic just wants to hear that all people need to do is walk. After all, that's pretty much all humans have done for 99% of our history. Our ancestors were excellent at walking; that's it.

Even if they climbed a tree for fruit, it was after they walked around and found it. If they found veggies or nuts to pick, it was after they walked around and found it. Organized agriculture hasn't been around all that long. If they ate a dead animal, it was after they stalked it for hours, maybe days. If they ate seafood, it was after they walked to the water.

If they were lucky enough to live in an area that had an abundance of these things year round (doubtful), then they pretty much just sat around all day like we do.

If you want to be as functional as our ancestors, that's all you need to do. If you want to be able to that and a whole lot more, lift weights. If you want to waste everyone's time, go on the internet and start idiotic debates in which you define the word 'functional' so narrowly as to make it meaningless.

Last edited by BWTrainer : 02-27-2009 at 06:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Unread 03-05-2009, 05:59 AM
hella hella is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 23
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
Andy, I wrote like a 12 part series addressing this particular debate, I'm not going to write it up again here for your benefit. The whole argument is asinine. But please read the article series.

And the 400m example is because the usual argument used by the pro-interval dummies on the net is 'Compare a 400m runner to a marathoner, the 400m runner is leaner; hence you should train like a 400m runner'.

here's a question for you: do you have any idea how a 400m runner actually trains. What about the 100m. Compare and contrast that to the types of interval training pushed for fat loss.

Oh yeah, it's all in the article too.

The difference in body compsition between sprinters and marathoners is as much genetics and drugs as anything else. Saying it's because one sprints and one does distance training is absolutely asinine.

Sprinters aren't musclar and lean b/c they sprint (and sprint training for the 100m is nothing like the interval training pushed by people on the internet). They are muscular because they are black and lift weights and take drugs, and lean because they are lean.

Again, pleae take teh time to read the entire series on teh site before continuing with this. It's a waste of my time to write up the entirety of those 10-12 articles here.
I just read the article you mentioned and I am not sure I completely agree with all of it.
I am a 400m runner and the sprint workouts with long periods of rest you are talking about only take place close to peak times. Most of the year the workouts are much longer with minimal rest periods. Of course you can toss in some 95% repeats for speed's sake but if you follow a real program you do a lot of 400m 'overs', 'unders' as well as tempo runs, etc, at various effort levels.
So, even though you only train for a 400m race, our training sessions (track workouts) usually last up to 2.5 to 3 hrs between the warmups, warmup runs, actual running workout, and cooldown runs.
400m runners are lean because they train to exhaustion 6 days a week AND realize that if their diet is crap - they'll just have to carry the extra useless load ALL THE WAY AROUND THE TRACK - which performed at even 80% effort is not easy.

I am lean because I train hard and don't eat too much crap. I don't do any drugs. But on the other hand when have an extended break from track training - I instantly gain body fat, no matter how many running/jogging workouts I do.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:41 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.