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  #1  
Unread 09-01-2015, 05:48 AM
IloveRFL IloveRFL is offline
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Default Why EXACTLY are rat/mice studies bad?

Hi,

I hope this is the right section. I used to not realize that rat studies don't mean much before I found Lyle's site/forum and it makes sense to me, but I want to make sure I understand the physiological details a bit more instead of just echoing "you are not a rat" .

- different inflammatory response
I picked this up here: http://pipeline.corante.com/archives...ow_we_know.php , but I dont really know what I am talking about, something about different pathways that are used as a response to stress?

- (related) different reaction to disease in general (cancer, diabetes) (again just spouting off what I've read)

- different metabolism
no carb storage (?) / de novo lipogenesis

- something about different evolutionary conditions or pressures that Lyle also mentioned somewhere. I took this to mean, for instance, that rats survive best when they are very thin (faster) whereas humans live longer or as long when they are at a normal weight or slightly overweight in old age, but I am not sure.

- not applicable to humans 99.9% of the time.
I know this anecdotally from whenever I read about most supplements that work perfectly in rats, but not in humans, but what else? Strokes were mentioned in that article as another example where the suggested treatment from rat studies never worked in humans. Are there areas where the transfer is really good? Addiction maybe? I've seen a lot of rat research there (possibly just for ethical reasons).

- something about lab rats being different from real rats outside

So I sort of have a general idea why this conclusion is right, but not really. As a final question, would all of this hold true for research with monkeys as well or do you (Lyle) give more value to that type of study?


Why are rat studies used?
- cheaper
- no or fewer ethical considerations
- faster results from shorter life span

Last edited by IloveRFL : 09-01-2015 at 05:52 AM.
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  #2  
Unread 09-01-2015, 08:21 AM
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lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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their physiology rarely mimicks humans, their shorter lifespans make extrapolation to humans problematic. 1 day for a mouse is 7 or more days for a human and it goes on and on.

More practically, in almost no cases does rat work transfer to humans. They use it becuase it's cheap and easy to control but in most things, what they find in mice and rats, especially in terms of nutrition and supplements never applies to humans.
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Unread 09-01-2015, 02:51 PM
Bacfa Bacfa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IloveRFL View Post
As a final question, would all of this hold true for research with monkeys as well or do you (Lyle) give more value to that type of study?
Yeah I'd like an answer to this too. I've always thought they're so similar to us that what works in them works for us too. Does it?
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  #4  
Unread 09-01-2015, 03:20 PM
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lylemcd lylemcd is offline
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Simians are way closer to humans than rodents will ever be.

I still generally don't care until it translates to humans.

When I pubmed, I limit it to humans.
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Unread 09-03-2015, 07:49 AM
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Miknal Miknal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lylemcd View Post
None of them I've ever seen. The physiology is just completely different.

And since someone will ask "Why do they use rats and mice for studies then?" The answer is this

Control and short life span

You can run 100 rats/mice through a study in no time at all and have ultimate control over them. As well, due to lifespan differences, 2 years in rat time is a full lifetime in humans.

But the studies never seem apply. The physiology is too different. And people need to recognize that. At best it gives you an interesting (and easier) obresrvation to then test on humans. Yet it doesn't ever seem to apply. Everything that makes rats lean doesn't do anything in humans. We've got b-3 receptors that work stunningly in rats and do nothing in humans. rats and mice use blood borne substrate over muscular which is why they fat adapt better than humans. Etc, etc.
Lyle gave a good breakdown of this 5 years ago.
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