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  #1  
Unread 12-31-2017, 01:55 PM
Overanxiousnapkin Overanxiousnapkin is offline
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Default Insomnia Management during Surplus

Hey guys

So i've had issues with chronic insomnia since i was a kid, Recently i'm an intermediate lifter at about 10-12% bodyfat and i'm about to start a surplus(.25 lb per week, 1 lb per month) so i can put on some muscle

I know when it comes to the question "What do i do to put on muscle if i cant sleep?" the answer is simple but not so simple "Sleep better."

My sleep specialist has me doing an insomnia treatment called CBT-I, Which stands for Cognitive Behavioral Therapy - Insomnia

Part of the protocol involves Sleep Restriction. Which involves lowering your sleeping time to about 4-5 hours(ish) and increasing it when a certain criteria is met. This is done to train your body into 1. falling asleep quicker and 2. restoring confidence in your ability to fall asleep

So for the next maybe month or so i'm likely to have impaired sleep quality.

I understand this is going to most likely have a negative impact on my nutrient partitioning and strength gains

My question is are there any options i can do to lessen the impact of my impaired sleep while i get treatment? perhaps Less volume, slower surplus(perhaps 1000 cal per week), more herbal tea...(well i'm doing that anyways ) etc etc


- Many thanks
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  #2  
Unread 01-04-2018, 02:51 AM
Determinism Determinism is offline
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The two are hard to combine. Probably your best bet is to reduce volume/frequency to the point you can still recover from the workouts. Also you may need to limit the intensity (focus on overload) somewhat to prevent injury and further improve recovery.

There are various ways you can limit the amount of work you do in the gym:
- Focus on a few compound lifts and drop some accessory movements.
- Train 2x full body each week (or 3x using 1 full body and 2 upper/lower days)
- Implement reverse pyramid or back-off sets. This means that only your very first set approaches RPE10 (maximum effort). All other sets should have lower effort and failure should not occur.

Diet wise you may do the following:
- Eat carbs just before you go to sleep. You will probably fall asleep faster.
- On training days eat at a surplus. Rest days around maintenance. This will limit fat gain which may occur more rapidly when being deprived of sleep.
- You may start an Intermittent Fasting protocol to fight the hunger. Sleep deprivation causes more hunger.

Doing all of this, and given that you're "just" an intermediate, may still give you some progress.

Of course, you can also start bulking once you've fixed your sleeping problems and just maintain for the time being.
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  #3  
Unread 01-04-2018, 04:23 PM
Overanxiousnapkin Overanxiousnapkin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Determinism View Post
The two are hard to combine. Probably your best bet is to reduce volume/frequency to the point you can still recover from the workouts. Also you may need to limit the intensity (focus on overload) somewhat to prevent injury and further improve recovery.

There are various ways you can limit the amount of work you do in the gym:
- Focus on a few compound lifts and drop some accessory movements.
- Train 2x full body each week (or 3x using 1 full body and 2 upper/lower days)
- Implement reverse pyramid or back-off sets. This means that only your very first set approaches RPE10 (maximum effort). All other sets should have lower effort and failure should not occur.

Diet wise you may do the following:
- Eat carbs just before you go to sleep. You will probably fall asleep faster.
- On training days eat at a surplus. Rest days around maintenance. This will limit fat gain which may occur more rapidly when being deprived of sleep.
- You may start an Intermittent Fasting protocol to fight the hunger. Sleep deprivation causes more hunger.

Doing all of this, and given that you're "just" an intermediate, may still give you some progress.

Of course, you can also start bulking once you've fixed your sleeping problems and just maintain for the time being.
I've thought about just maintaining, it seems like the safe thing to do.

I'm actually doing a he-who-shall-not-be-named bulk, involving carb cycling (low carb low calorie rest days and high carb/high calorie training day

But i think i'll just eat at maintenance but still carb cycle. Might as well see if i can defy laws of physics and put some muscle on anyways.

Also https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21669584

I've been eating kiwis before bed, being the study i linked pointed out that it *may* help me sleep. even if it doesn't kiwi's are still good.


That does bring up a question i've always had though.

Everytime i look up sleep and fitness its always an article about how bad not sleeping is for muscle growth and fitness.(which it is, there's no denying it)

But what i never see is how you can make the most of it when your trying to sleep but can't.
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  #4  
Unread 01-05-2018, 05:05 AM
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zLeeKo zLeeKo is offline
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I don't understand why your sleep specialist or whatever it's called, didn't prescribe you some meds like Seroquel, which is a standard for insomnia treatment, instead of that CBT crap.

Naturally, you could try with melatonin (both standard and slow-release), 5-htp, some carbs at night, etc.
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  #5  
Unread 01-06-2018, 08:58 PM
Overanxiousnapkin Overanxiousnapkin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zLeeKo View Post
I don't understand why your sleep specialist or whatever it's called, didn't prescribe you some meds like Seroquel, which is a standard for insomnia treatment, instead of that CBT crap.

Naturally, you could try with melatonin (both standard and slow-release), 5-htp, some carbs at night, etc.
So for starters, I have tried Seroquel,

A long with Trazadone, Sonata, Dypinhydramine, Ambien, Eszopiclone, and a couple of other antihistamines, antidepressants and relaxants. It has been very resistant to treatment.

And yes, melatonin included in that stack.

Second of all, CBT-I Has tons of solid evidence behind its effeciency(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4694188/)

The third point, havent you ever stopped to think that if chronic insomnia can suddenly be cured with some melatonin and carbs at night, i wouldent be seeing a sleep specialist in the first place?

Lastly if your going to make a post then why dont you try letting my doctor handle the insomnia and keeping the topic more relevant to training and diet(mostly training, hence the reason i posted it in this board in the first place)
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  #6  
Unread 01-06-2018, 10:04 PM
squat squat is offline
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Try lithium, lexapro, lunesta. Smoke week before bed. Or 50-100mg edibles. Drink 3-6 beers, and half a bottle of sake. Work 60-70 hours a week. Lots of coffee in the morning will help you crash later. You can do coke on special occasions, but you'll just have to drink more when that happens. If you do cigarettes, a pack of day will put you down. I was having sex with this woman, and I could never sleep. Her bed was too hot. I wasn't getting off. Try having tired sex, and you'll just get annoyed. But sleepy sex is best, for sleeping. Not hot sex, just warm. The hot sex is bad for sleeping. And the sweaty, and the wetness. Sleeping while damp is difficult. Make sure you don't get bed bugs, cause that sucks. I've found that three hours of cardio in a day could make me tired.
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  #7  
Unread 01-06-2018, 10:10 PM
squat squat is offline
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You can't afford to train much less, but you will find you'll backslide, anyhow, sleeping like that.


I think it's usually easier on your brain to train with less intensity and a bit more volume.


carb cycling really messes with sleep in my experience, and I can relate, but that's only in my life, not yours.
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  #8  
Unread 01-07-2018, 03:33 AM
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zLeeKo zLeeKo is offline
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squat gave good advices, listen to him.

Instead of paying money to that sleep spec, you should get a handjob or two per night. That would put you to sleep.

Also, best cure for insomnia: get a good night sleep.

Was I helpful? You're welcome.
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  #9  
Unread 01-07-2018, 04:36 AM
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zLeeKo zLeeKo is offline
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On a more serious note, eat at MAINTENANCE and train at MAINTENANCE, until you fix your sleep problems.

Without 7-8 hours of sleep per night, you can't expect any progression in gym performance. You're asking for injury with such low amount of sleep. Sleep is just that important.
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  #10  
Unread 01-07-2018, 09:58 AM
w1cked w1cked is offline
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Cbd>cbt. Just sayin
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