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  #21  
Unread 04-17-2018, 07:46 AM
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zLeeKo zLeeKo is offline
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Originally Posted by mhertz View Post
I've seen alot of evidence scientifically of the health benefits of vegan diets, especially on heart disease and colesterol, and e.g. it's the only diet proven to reduce heart.disease I believe.

I was then pretty sure that going vegan was one of the best healthy ways to eat, provided obviously that you made sure to eat varied for getting proper vitamins/minerals and taking supplements for the rest e.g. B12.

Lyle mcdonald has for many years been my "go-to-guy" for anything scientific in regards to diet/training/health, so I thought to myself that i'd better check that lyle himself agrees with this, and I got the exact opposite and that he considers them as having an eating-disorder!

As someone who goes so strictly by the scientific research, then how can you say this, please? Obviously, with any diet, you need to eat varied to not get malnourished, but that goes the same with veganism no?

Lastly, could I please ask if it is in lyle's opinion only because of the reduction in saturated fat that there is healthy research made for vegans? Because i'm currently not vegan and just eat low fat meat like chicken breast and tuna, and use healthy oils/fish-oil for fat and wholegrain carbs, and was then thinking if that was just as healthy, then i'd prefer that to veganism. OK, the veggies/fruits i'm sure help vegans also, but that could too be added to the diet I presented above that i'm following currently.

Thanks in advance!

-Martin.
It's not healthy and causes numerous nutritional deficiencies that you can't fix with supplements.

Funny thing is, you usually don't start suffering from b12 or iron deficiency for about a year.

Eat BOTH meat and vegetables, simple as that.
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  #22  
Unread 04-17-2018, 07:51 AM
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zLeeKo zLeeKo is offline
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Well, you can fix it maybe with 25 supplements daily.

Better option: eat a damn steak.
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  #23  
Unread 04-17-2018, 11:41 AM
PhysiologyIsPhun PhysiologyIsPhun is offline
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Originally Posted by mhertz View Post
I've seen alot of evidence scientifically of the health benefits of vegan diets, especially on heart disease and cholesterol, and e.g. it's the only diet proven to reverse heart.disease I believe.

I was then pretty sure that going vegan was one of the best healthy ways to eat, provided obviously that you made sure to eat varied for getting proper vitamins/minerals and taking supplements for the rest e.g. B12.

Lyle mcdonald has for many years been my "go-to-guy" for anything scientific in regards to diet/training/health, so I thought to myself that i'd better check that Lyle himself agrees with this, and I got the exact opposite and that he considers them as having an eating-disorder!

As someone who goes so strictly by the scientific research, then how can you say this, please? Obviously, with any diet, you need to eat varied to not get malnourished, but that goes the same with veganism no?

Lastly, could I please ask if it's in Lyle's opinion only because of the reduction in saturated fat that there is healthy research made for vegans? Because i'm not vegan and just eat low fat meat like chicken breast and tuna, and use healthy oils/fish-oil for fat and wholegrain carbs, and I get enough calcium from 100g whey per day, and was then thinking if that was just as healthy, then i'd prefer continuing this, than to going vegan. OK, the veggies/fruits i'm sure help vegans also, but that could too be added to the diet I presented above that i'm following.

Thanks in advance!

-Martin.
These studies you're referring to... Do they compare unhealthy people put on a vegan diet to other unhealthy people that stay on their current diet? That's the problem with this whole vegan thing. If you take two unhealthy people with the same diet and literally change one of their diets to ANYTHING else that forces or implies some form or calorie restriction, you're going to see their health improved. It's not that being vegan is better than other "healthy" diets, it's that their diet was so **** to begin with that doing literally anything else would give them health benefits. Veganism specifically is going to heavily reduce your calorie consumption because the diet is full of very low calorie and high fiber foods. So OF COURSE obese people who make the change will see drastic changes in their health.
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  #24  
Unread 04-17-2018, 01:08 PM
mhertz mhertz is offline
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Thanks for your replies guys, much appreciated!

Honestly, i've not studied the research myself, but just saw some documentations where a bunch of research was given as proof. I've read an analysis too where some doc showed the difference between arteries after/before vegan diet.

I fully get the part about unhealthy people compared to vegans, but my thinking was about the thing about "only diet proven to reverse heart-disease" which makes sense because of the mostly avoided saturated fat. Also, unrelated, you avoid heme-iron in red-meat, and eat lots of fruits and veggies. It sounds like a good diet, with only B12 as an issue, if eating varied, hence my thinking. The reason we as meat-eaters don't get B12 deficiencies, is because the meat/dairy is induced with such artificially i've read, so what's the difference from taking a supplement or getting supplement-induced whole-food?.

You'll need a bucnh of supps to on a "normal" diet if not eating varied, so that's not a proper argument imho.
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  #25  
Unread 04-17-2018, 01:14 PM
mhertz mhertz is offline
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Thanks for your replies guys, much appreciated!

Honestly, i've not studied the research myself, but just saw some documentations where a bunch of research was given as proof. I've read an analysis too where some doc showed the difference between arteries after/before vegan diet. The president of the American College of Cardiology is vegan too + some other "key" health "players".

I fully get the part about unhealthy people compared to vegans, but my thinking was about the thing about "only diet proven to reverse heart-disease" which makes sense because of the mostly avoided saturated fat. Also, unrelated, you avoid heme-iron in red-meat, and eat lots of fruits and veggies. It sounds like a good diet, with only B12 as an issue, if eating varied, hence my thinking. The reason we as meat-eaters don't get B12 deficiencies, is because the meat/dairy is induced with such artificially i've read, so what's the difference from taking a supplement or getting supplement-induced whole-food?.

You'll need a bunch of supps too on a "normal" diet if not eating varied, so that's not a proper argument imho.

Anyway, my "hope" was that Lyle would say that all the beneficial research was because of avoiding saturated fat(or reduce I mean), or because of unhealthy vs vegans studies as already mentioned, and that if eating varied normally and reducing saturated fat, then it was just as healthy as "veganism when getting sure to eat for micro-nutrients and supplement the few needed still" - I don't wanna be a vegan

Last edited by mhertz : 04-17-2018 at 01:19 PM.
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  #26  
Unread 04-17-2018, 02:00 PM
Twitchy Twitchy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhertz View Post
Thanks for your replies guys, much appreciated!

Honestly, i've not studied the research myself, but just saw some documentations where a bunch of research was given as proof. I've read an analysis too where some doc showed the difference between arteries after/before vegan diet.

I fully get the part about unhealthy people compared to vegans, but my thinking was about the thing about "only diet proven to reverse heart-disease" which makes sense because of the mostly avoided saturated fat. Also, unrelated, you avoid heme-iron in red-meat, and eat lots of fruits and veggies. It sounds like a good diet, with only B12 as an issue, if eating varied, hence my thinking. The reason we as meat-eaters don't get B12 deficiencies, is because the meat/dairy is induced with such artificially i've read, so what's the difference from taking a supplement or getting supplement-induced whole-food?.

You'll need a bucnh of supps to on a "normal" diet if not eating varied, so that's not a proper argument imho.
Before I address your post it's important to understand that a "healthy diet" is one in which you meet your micronutrients, macronutrients, and minimize the overconsumption of bad nutrients such as trans fat, sugar, and etc.

Reread PhysiologyIsPhun's post, you missed him explaining about low calorie and high fiber foods.
To keep this simple in one sentence: The benefits to a vegan diet is not because of their lack of meat.

The benefits come from them eating more foods that have high nutrition value, high fiber, and etc.
The best diet is one that you can adhere to. Veganism can be just as fine as a meat eating diet. Just make sure like you said you get those nutrients in.
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  #27  
Unread 04-17-2018, 05:05 PM
mhertz mhertz is offline
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Thanks alot, great insight and I much appreciate it! This was actually also what I was hoping to hear.

Also, I was here referring to people that CAN control there diets(willpower!) and in which is the most healthiest diet in that case, when eating properly/varied in each of the diets.

Can I please ask what the consensus around here(Lyle's opinion spread around here) about health of dairy? I know calcium is important, but I believe there are other(inferiour) sources. In milk there's an allowed level of "puss" and some speculate adults have no business drinking milk. High saturated fat is another negative. I saw that it was illegal by law to call eggs healthy in commercials. I know that many tests shows neglible impact on bad cholesterol, but again i've read that the curve isn't linear, and that it's because we already consume saturated fat that the values don't go much up, and if we ceased it(or greatly reduced), then the tests would be different when consuming eggs and testing cholesterol.

I know lyle advocates dairy in his books, so probably believes that within moderation it isn't bad, but i'm here talking optimally and not just "not bad". Or maybe the calcium outweighs the negatives.
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  #28  
Unread 04-17-2018, 05:32 PM
Twitchy Twitchy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhertz View Post
Thanks alot, great insight and I much appreciate it! This was actually also what I was hoping to hear.

Also, I was here referring to people that CAN control there diets(willpower!) and in which is the most healthiest diet in that case, when eating properly/varied in each of the diets.

Can I please ask what the consensus around here(Lyle's opinion spread around here) about health of dairy? I know calcium is important, but I believe there are other(inferiour) sources. In milk there's an allowed level of "puss" and some speculate adults have no business drinking milk. High saturated fat is another negative. I saw that it was illegal by law to call eggs healthy in commercials. I know that many tests shows neglible impact on bad cholesterol, but again i've read that the curve isn't linear, and that it's because we already consume saturated fat that the values don't go much up, and if we ceased it(or greatly reduced), then the tests would be different when consuming eggs and testing cholesterol.

I know lyle advocates dairy in his books, so probably believes that within moderation it isn't bad, but i'm here talking optimally and not just "not bad". Or maybe the calcium outweighs the negatives.
Uhh, I'm not too sure what you are asking here. Dairy like most foods are fine in moderation.

It would be "optimal" to consume cow's milk if I need macronutrients, vitamin D, calcium, and some calories.

It would be "optimal" to consume soy/almond milk if I need micronutrients while maintaining a low caloric intake.

I hope that answers your question.
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  #29  
Unread 04-18-2018, 06:35 AM
mhertz mhertz is offline
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Thanks! So you're dismissing that dairy/egg(sorry, I included that in dairy) is unhealthy(in moderation), which was my question, as this is also a popular debate. Also, as said, the tests that show no real increase in bad cholesterol from eating eggs, is speculated to be because the test-subject already eat moderate/high saturated fat, as the curve isn't linear.

Anyway, I can see the consensus clearly around here, and that is that the vegan arguments is bullI need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post.I need to read the rules post., and which i'll then trust and take your word for(since this is Lyle's forum). Thanks again!
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  #30  
Unread 04-18-2018, 06:44 AM
manofsteel manofsteel is offline
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I am going to go against the grain a bit here. I know people are going to dismiss me when I say this but really this is a forum for athletes and body builders. This is for people who want to get in good shape, many of them for aesthetic reasons. This isn't a forum dedicated to looking at what diets might help you not get cancer when you are 80.

It seems like the longest living people on Earth have lifestyles that include a lot of low level activity like walking and eat a mostly plant based diet with little meat. There are genetics that go into that too obviously, but if those people (okinawans are who I am thinking of) started eating McDonald's those good genetics would be out the window. You have to think about what your goals are for nutrition. If you are looking for longevity and disease prevention in later life a forum for athletes and bodybuilders might not be your best bet.
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